Geriatric Grumbling

[Drifter Bob]

I think it's important to realize that these are not mutually exclusive. My group of twentysomethings adores high-powered, balanced mechanics, role-playing and realisitic consequences (and the occasional mature theme, though we more play D&D as escapism, so I've gotta be careful not to kill the buzz).

Just because a sorcerer can destroy the world with a Wish doesn't mean that we can't be role-play intensive.

Point taken. I cite Ourphs complaint about the way rules tend to be balanced, and my personal anecdotal experience that high powered campaiagns are often run in a kind of mastubatory fashion, but I'm aware that there are obviously many exceptions to this 'rule'. You can role play as gods or peon's, and either way have realistic themes, I think the former is a bit harder to pull off but Im not dead set against it.

DB

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

Why do you assume chaotic people ignore their demons? I don't view them that way at all.

Because the primary duty of being "Lawful" is measuring your own self using external standards, whereas being "Chaotic" allows a character to define morality for his or her self:

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward
legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.

For example: A Lawful-Good Paladin has an addiction to alcohol. Because his Deity requires him to abstain from drinking, his lawfulness requires him to work against the temptations. He also wishes the Ranger would follow his example, and frequently lectures her on the dangers of strong spirits. Her rum sure looks tasty though...

The Chaotic-Good Ranger has an addiction to alcohol. Because she has plenty of coin to spend on booze, only drinks when alone, and never hurts anyone but herself when drinking, she feels like she doesn't need to resist this addiction. Who cares what that stuffy old Paladin says? Rum is tasty! But the hangovers are terrible, and once she woke up in a ditch...

 

[Drifter Bob]

Because the primary duty of being "Lawful" is measuring your own self using external standards, whereas being "Chaotic" allows a character to define morality for his or her self:

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward
legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.

For example: A Lawful-Good Paladin has an addiction to alcohol. Because his Deity requires him to abstain from drinking, his lawfulness requires him to work against the temptations. He also wishes the Ranger would follow his example, and frequently lectures her on the dangers of strong spirits. Her rum sure looks tasty though...

The Chaotic-Good Ranger has an addiction to alcohol. Because she has plenty of coin to spend on booze, only drinks when alone, and never hurts anyone but herself when drinking, she feels like she doesn't need to resist this addiction. Who cares what that stuffy old Paladin says? Rum is tasty! But the hangovers are terrible, and once she woke up in a ditch...

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't want to get in a huge debate about it, but I think that this, while possibly one definition which could fit into the mould of what is chaotic, is not the only one and assuming so leads to exactly the same kind of problem I was talking about. I mean, I could assume that all lawful charactes are borderline fascists, conformists, and control freaks, but that isn't neccessarily always the case.

DB

 

[Stormfalcon]

This is always true, but some of us feel that the rules do tend to push the game in a certain direction, and this has a cascading effect through all the products you can get for the game...

Db

I happen to be one of those who disagree. Remember, Rule Zero is your friend. If you and your group think that the rules, for whatever reason, doesn't serve your game properly, then modify or ditch whatever it is that isn't working out for you and work out something else as an alternate. Find another game or setting if need be. Just find or do something that works for you and your group.

Support materials (settings/adventures/etc.) disappointing? Come up with something of your own or modify what's there so that it would be more enjoyable. It's your game.

Do not let your perception of the rules or what someone else might think would be an appropriate maturity level dictate how you and your players play the game. The only time that strict adherence to the rules should ever be accepted would be in tournament play, and that's it. Otherwise, do what's enjoyable for you and your group and don't be a slave to anything.

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

I could assume that all lawful charactes are borderline fascists, conformists, and control freaks, but that isn't neccessarily always the case.

I see. I wasn't saying all Chaotic characters were irresponsible, I was saying that frequently irresponsible characters are Chaotic (as defined by the PHB).

edit: The Ranger could easily choose to resist the addiction like the Paladin, but her motivations will likely be another personal choice, rather than a directive from a external source. Her Chaotic alignment allows her the flexibilty, whereas the Lawful Paladin must follow the scripture or lose his powers.

 

[Aeric]

One of the things which I think is a consequence of this 'unhappy compromise' to me, is that DnD while being kind of childish and simplistic in some ways, is still quite complicated. I'd actually like to see a simpler basic version which you could easily introduce to new players. Character generation (skills points!) alone in the current version make this quite difficult!

It's funny...games like D&D, which on the surface seem intended for a less-mature audience, have systems which are more complicated than games aimed at an older and/or more mature demographic, such as Vampire. I would rather use the White Wolf system to introduce a new player to the idea of roleplaying than D&D (a situation I currently find myself in). And yet, if that same player was younger in age, I would prefer the more complicated system that lacked all of the mature themes one would find in a game like Vampire.

This trend of simpler rules for more mature games tells me that the people in the industry think that once we get to a certain age, we realize just how irrelevant most of the rules are and start focusing on what is really important: the story. Then again, I know plenty of people who are in their 40s that are perfectly happy with hack-and-slash. To each his own, I guess.

 

[Drifter Bob]

It's funny...games like D&D, which on the surface seem intended for a less-mature audience, have systems which are more complicated than games aimed at an older and/or more mature demographic, such as Vampire. I would rather use the White Wolf system to introduce a new player to the idea of roleplaying than D&D (a situation I currently find myself in). And yet, if that same player was younger in age, I would prefer the more complicated system that lacked all of the mature themes one would find in a game like Vampire.

This trend of simpler rules for more mature games tells me that the people in the industry think that once we get to a certain age, we realize just how irrelevant most of the rules are and start focusing on what is really important: the story. Then again, I know plenty of people who are in their 40s that are perfectly happy with hack-and-slash. To each his own, I guess.

Very interesting point...

DB

 

[hong]

So, Drifter Bobbie, why don't you tell these people all about your mature approach to katanae.


Hong "or would you prefer I did it?" Ooi

 

[Drifter Bob]

So, Drifter Bobbie, why don't you tell these people all about your mature approach to katanae.


Hong "or would you prefer I did it?" Ooi

ENworld, please meet one of my moronic stalkers from usenet...


DB

 

[hong]

ENworld, please meet one of my moronic stalkers from usenet...


DB

Geez d00d, hasn't your head recovered from that explodiation yet?