Gestalt Vampire

[DeathOfRats]

Hey all, I'm just starting to devise my BBEG and wondered if there would be any benefit from taking Bone Knight as I already have the Vampire Template. This is a repost from WotC boards, not sure if there is a difference in the users or not!

In an idea world, I would have the following:

16bab, or a method of converting attacks into touch attacks for energy drain. Not sure crusaders have access to that manouver.
Some sort of bonus to hitpoints. d12 hp are nice, but without any Con score it doesn't really amount to much.
Reasonable saves across the board. Paladin of Tyranny for the Cha synergy looks like a good option.
17th level casting.

I've a few ideas, hopefully I'll get an insight from you all with what you think might be best.

First idea was to take Dread Necromancer 20//Vampire/Master Vampire/Envolved Undead/Vampire Lord.

It's simple and effective, I just don't know if I'll pass all the templates past the GM. I can definitely get Vampire, but not sure of the others.

The second plan involves the same Dread Necro on the left but utilising Bone Knight and a bit of cleric stuff on the right.

Third plan involves using a Ruby Knight Vindicator build on the left, with something plagiarised from the previous builds to make up the right hand side. Probably the first idea if my GM passes it.

Any thoughts?

*********************

Well, the news is that I can't use the Vampire Lord or Evolved Undead unfortunately :/

Looking over Bone Knight, it seems that it would be useful for a short time, but ultimately not really worth it for this character. The lifedrinker Prestige class looks very good if I can get it, but it's 3.0 I think.

If I managed to get that, there's a whole bunch of nice things you could do with the caster side and lifewell points.

Lvl Class1 Class2 Feats
1 Pdn Tyr Cleric Extra Turning, Improved Toughness
2 Pdn Tyr Cleric
3 Crus Cleric Unholy Toughness (if GM allows it as a feat)
4 Crus Cleric
5 Crus Cleric
6 RKV Vampire Extend Spell
7 RKV Vampire
8 RKV Vampire
9 RKV Vampire Persistant Spell
10 RKV Vampire
11 RKV Vampire
12 RKV Vampire Improved Energy Drain
13 RKV Vampire (Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Imp. Init., L.Reflex)
14 RKV Crusader
15 RKV Crusader DMM: Persistant
16 Cleric Crusader
17 Cleric Crusader
18 Cleric Crusader spare
19 Cleric Crusader
20 Cleric CrusaderI

definitely seem to have no real clue about where I want to head. It's a bit dubious whether RKV is allowable using Gestalt, since it advances martial manouevers AND spellcasting. I like the idea of being clerical, since it allows plenty of options for buffing, all round abilities, rebuking undead and also DMM cheese. I'm sure there are better optimization choices though.

I'm also sure that there is a feat somewhere that allows an improved effect from energy drain by 50%. I'd take that somewhere along the line. With Fast Healing 5, crusader strikes and clerical inflicts it would allow the character to be very self sufficient with healing.

Any other suggestions? I wondered about Master Vampire somewhere in there, but it would mean losing the last levels of crusader. Also not sure which PrC's would suit the clerical side so I just picked standard cleric.

I've also looked into being a Binder, which looks good, but I'm also pretty sure Anima mage is not allowed using Gestalt.

 

[blargney the second]

Vampires + gestalt = nastier than you might expect, even with really high expectations.

 

[DeathOfRats]

I bet. I just wish I could focus myself to what I want.

In an ideal world I'd end up with +16 BAB, good saves across the board, plus 17th level casting at least. Ideally I'd like to be able to put out some awesome damage at least a few times per day.

I think the problem is that I see all these neat concepts and expect gestalt to fuse them together. Since I've got +8 LA to contend with, the best I can do is hope to use one of the neat concepts which doesn't use banned gestalt classes and hope to improve on it.

These are the reasons why I like certain things, but need help figuring out why NOT to take them!

Dread Necro: Just seems to fit in with the vampire theme, along with getting spellcasting. If I'm getting arcane spells, I usually like to get versatility though, which this doesn't offer.

Cleric: Using inflict spells to add extra healing, plus several powerful buffs sounds awesome. Never really played a cleric though...

Master Vampire: Well, if I took this I would just do a single level dip for the extra spawn and good saves.

Binder/Totemist: Seems very flexible to me with some very powerful abilities.

Anima Mage: Expanding on the binder, plus magic progression too. Not sure if allowed.

Crusader/RKV: Seems like good synergy with the cleric, and has martial manouvers to boot. I'd have to take Martial Study to get some important things, namely Emerald Razor and Ironheart surge, though a level of warblade somewhere could achieve that.

As you can see, I like too many things. My ideal situation would be the ability to be a strong melee combatant, using energy drain to my advantage. With a reasonable DR and Fast Healing 5, it makes up for losing Con on hitpoints. Taking 8 levels of Dread lord would add extra DR unless the weapon was a silver, magical bludgeoning weapon.

Any ideas?

 

[Thanee]

Not sure, but I think you mix in Level Adjustment there as a class on one side of the Gestalt, and that's certainly not something one should do, as it is ridiculously broken. Besides, the Gestalt rules surely do not imply, that you can do that. You can only combine classes, so monster HD are cool, since those resemble a class, but LA does not.

In Gestalt, Level Adjustment has to push both sides, just like it does in non-Gestalt (well, not both sides there, obviously). Gestalt begins, where your 1st level begins.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DeathOfRats]

I know what you're saying Thanee, this is just the way the DM runs it.

 

[Thanee]

It's a bit dubious whether RKV is allowable using Gestalt, since it advances martial manouevers AND spellcasting.

I suppose that's an 'Eldritch Knight-like' PrC from Bo9S, advancing one of the new warrior-classes and a spellcasting class at the same time, pretty much?

If so, then it is clearly disallowed (altho, they use the moderate term of 'should be prohibited').

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I know what you're saying Thanee, this is just the way the DM runs it.

I see, if the DM runs it that way... his fault, not yours.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DeathOfRats]

Yeah, it's a bit odd with RKV. It doesn't really add many feats/manouvers per level, and spellcasting progression is 8/10 rather than full. That has also been approved too though, so no complaints there.

It would be an interesting thing to go for Crusader 1, Paladin 2, Dread Necromancer 8, Vampire 8, Master Vampire 1//Cleric 5, RKV 10, Cleric 5.

18 levels of clerical casting, 8 levels of Dread Necromancer spells, Initiator Level 13 giving 7th level manouvers.

On top of that, assuming you had at least 26 Charisma, you would be able to control 56HD of vampires that you created and 220HD of animated undead.

A Rod of Undead Mastery would double that, allowing a veritable army. Now break out the madness by taking Leadership and Undead Leadership and you've got two kickass cohorts and a whole heap of extra followers. Likelihood is that you can take a heap of them as clerics, giving an even greater army.

With a cohort with Master of Shadows PrC, you can even have a bunch of shadows hanging out with you! Of course it would be nice to figure in a level of warblade somewhere so you can get Emerald Razor and Ironheart Surge, but that's just candy

 

[blargney the second]

Oops, I misread your first post - I thought you were a DM looking for help with an NPC, rather than a player with a PC!

In that case, I withdraw my earlier statement: the LA is ordinarily not worth losing class benefits. If you can take LA on one side of your gestalt, I have no idea how well that'll work out in the end.

 

[DeathOfRats]

This is what I went with in the end:

Classes

1	 Cleric      Paladin of Tyranny
2	 Cleric      Swordsage
3	 Cleric      Paladin of Tyranny
4	 Cleric      Crusader
5	 Cleric      Warblade
6	 RKV         Vampire
7	 RKV         Vampire
8	 RKV         Vampire
9	 RKV         Vampire
10      RKV         Vampire
11      RKV         Vampire
12      RKV         Vampire
13      RKV         Vampire

Feats

Unholy Toughness                            Human Bonus  (assuming I get it past the GM)
Power Attack                                1st Level
Improved Bull Rush                          3rd Level
Extend Spell                                Planning Domain
Blind-Fighting                              Shadow domain
Shock Trooper                               6th Level
Power Attack                                9th Level
Martial Study -IHS                           12th Level

Maneuvers:

Still working on this. I've deliberately chucked a bunch of feats in ready to take Mot9. That should allow me access to a whole heap of nice stuff depending on how I mix it up. From what I am aware, the IL of all 3 classes rises on a 1 to 1 basis with RKV, so I should be IL 14 with all 3 classes at level 16. If I pick up the right early maneuvers, I could have access to a whole slew of nice high level choices later on.

Equipment:

A mixed bag so far, still got so much to choose from.

Hideaway        Coffin Hideaway (7,000gp)
Weapon          +1 Necrotic Focus Weapon (+3) (32,000gp) - energy drain through weapon makes it easier. Even better if the weapon is keen and a scimitar
Head            Artificers Monocle (1,500gp) free identify, bonus!
Ring            Flesh Ring of Scorn (8,000gp) confirmed critical 3/day. Great if I get a crit with necrotic weapon.
Ring            Ring of Positive Protection (36,000gp) - needed as an undead, but is it too pricey?
Armour          Mithril Breastplate +4 (17,100gp) (10,100gp for +3) - the standard in light armour.
Hand            Truestrike Gauntlets - for those moments where you absolutely HAVE to hit

Also on the list is a cloak of charisma for the saves bonuses, along with a vest of resistance. My saves are pretty hot already though, so maybe the latter is overkill.