Getting a full set is unreasonable

[Kunimatyu]

I suspect that at any given time, the total number of in-print Reaper plastics will be significantly smaller than available WotC plastics, because of problems with stocking (potentially) hundreds of different SKUs. Reaper would have to have 120 different minatures on store shelves to compete with just *2* WotC sets in terms of variety

This is a very good point, but remember that Reaper is only planning on doing monsters/antagonists as minis - the 15-20 or so PC-humanoid types won't be as much of a factor.

 

[Dragon Snack]

Point(s) of Information:

Reaper puts out over 200 new miniatures a year, that beats WotC already.

Reaper's metal lines are NOT going anywhere.

The Dark Heaven Legends line has over 1200 sculpts in it. Sure, not all of those sculpts will see a plastic version, but it's a huge line to draw from.

Can we get over the SKU argument already? Game stores will stock what sells, who cares how much shelf space it takes up. Look at the wall space Games Workshop, Privateer Press, and Reaper take up at most* game stores (*yeah, I know, not at YOUR FLGS). If this was really a concern for WotC, they wouldn't be putting out 3+ books a month.

Reaper has said that the miniatures that people request* are consistantly under-performers. While Orcs and Skeletons may not excite you (or me, for that matter), I bet Reaper knows what they are doing and they will sell. *Yes, Reaper has had multiple threads on their message board for "Minis you would like to see" and YES, they have produced minis from those threads (I myself asked for a fat Bathalian pirate on one of them - 2 out of 3 ain't bad! We'll ignore the fact that the campaign ended before he was out though...).

And personally, I could care less about the "depth" of the line. I want good figures, a lot of what WotC puts out is filler. Wrackspawn, Quori (a RARE?), I'm looking at you. Not limited to those 2, they're just the most blatent...

BTW - I have thousands of DDM (but, to be semi-on topic, I've never tried to collect a full set), it always surprises me how people want to pit Reaper up against WotC. Reaper is a family business (albeit a BIG one), not a multinational corporation. They won't be killing off DDM anytime soon, despite all the paranoia (which itself says something). Reaper will not be flooding the market with the Legendary Encounters. Reaper has survived by not stretching themselves thin. Don't confuse small initial production runs with an unsuccessful line. Reaper has also said that as long as a product contributes something to the bottom line, they consider it successful.

In any event, VARIETY IS GOOD.

edit: removed the joke at the end, because I'm sure SOMEONE would have made it an issue...

 

[Twowolves]

I suspect that at any given time, the total number of in-print Reaper plastics will be significantly smaller than available WotC plastics, because of problems with stocking (potentially) hundreds of different SKUs. Reaper would have to have 120 different minatures on store shelves to compete with just *2* WotC sets in terms of variety - and on top of that, they'll have to convince stores to stock all that, in addition to their metal miniatures. Or maybe instead of their metal ones.

They don't seem to have any problem filling entire walls of game stores with their product now, adding the prepainted line might take up half a display case.

www.nords-games.com

All that green on the wall is Reaperminis. The red is too, if it'e the CAV line I think it is. While Nord's is (or maybe "was") a Reaper-backed venture, it's pretty typical of the spread of Reaper minis I've seen on walls of game stores from Dallas to DC.

Oh, and this tidbit from their forums as well:

Reaper sells 98,000 minis and 12,000 jars of paint PER WEEK.

That's 2500 pounds of metal per week. And that's not counting the big dragon boxed sets either, that's regular Dark Haven minis. That same year (2005) they released the 1000th figure for their Dark Haven line, which is just one of four lines of metal minis they produce.

120 new sculpts per year is peanuts. Also, keep in mind that Reaper can make the figs that DDM will never make, like the bartender, the dancing girl, and the altar of evil. While none of these are prepainted, they are in their catalog, and thus potential plastic releases.

No, I said that WotC have more prepainted minis, which they do.

And I said that you are making an unfair comparison. Reaper is dipping a toe in the water. If the water is fine, then all those thousands of existing molds become potential prepainted plastic releases. Mentioning their metal lines in this case is fair, because it is an indicator of potential competition.

 

[airwalkrr]

Rather than buying three cases and wasting all that time unpacking and counting and such, why not just buy an already completed set on ebay in the first place? That's what I always do and the price is actually pretty reasonable.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Can we get over the SKU argument already? Game stores will stock what sells, who cares how much shelf space it takes up.

The stores do. They might not have the space available to add yet another full line of minis. Wizards' minis do have an advantage there, since you can sell that stuff on a single small shelf. Foot in the door right there. A big line of non-random PPM might prove problematic - that needs a lot of space, expansion is often not an option, so what will have to make way?

Sure, if the stuff does sell, it can get the space, but it's not a trivial matter.

And personally, I could care less about the "depth" of the line. I want good figures, a lot of what WotC puts out is filler. Wrackspawn, Quori (a RARE?), I'm looking at you. Not limited to those 2, they're just the most blatent...

Yes, a lot is filler, but a much bigger lot is not.

And not everyone thinks like you. A lot of people are happy that they can get exotic D&D characters/critters as minis. Stuff not so many people would buy if it were all non-random. And since plastic minis need to be sold in huge numbers, those exotics wouldn't be made, as they just wouldn't be profitable enough. People who like these figures will prefer Wizards' current scheme.

In any event, VARIETY IS GOOD.

That's what I'm saying. And unless they've been lying about a lot more things than we thought, variety is better served with Wizards' current scheme.

Several people who seem to know what they're talking about have commented on the fact that plastic miniature production has very high fixed costs, so in order to be profitable, they have to sell a lot. That means that you either don't let the customer choose what exactly they buy, or you limit yourself to figures you know will sell a lot.

I do think variety is good. I think Wizards' line should stay. I also wish Reaper luck with this new endeavour, and that they'll become a serious challenge to Wizards' line, since this will force them to be more competitive. Competition is always good.

Rather than buying three cases and wasting all that time unpacking and counting and such, why not just buy an already completed set on ebay in the first place? That's what I always do and the price is actually pretty reasonable.

I tried it for the first time now. The set should ship this week, and should be there the next (or maybe even this week, if everything works out perfectly). I paid not much more for those two perfect cases than I would pay for two regular ones around here.

 

[Dragon Snack]

The stores do. They might not have the space available to add yet another full line of minis. Wizards' minis do have an advantage there, since you can sell that stuff on a single small shelf. Foot in the door right there. A big line of non-random PPM might prove problematic - that needs a lot of space, expansion is often not an option, so what will have to make way?

Sure, if the stuff does sell, it can get the space, but it's not a trivial matter.

Tell me that you've seen ANY LGS that doesn't have products that are slow movers. If there weren't slow movers, we wouldn't see FLGS closing left and right.

WotC has an advantage because of minimal SKUs? Couldn't be because they are WIZARDS OF THE COAST or DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS.

It's a specious argument that WotC floated to deflect the ire over randomization. Don't believe the hype.

Yes, a lot is filler, but a much bigger lot is not.

And not everyone thinks like you. A lot of people are happy that they can get exotic D&D characters/critters as minis. Stuff not so many people would buy if it were all non-random. And since plastic minis need to be sold in huge numbers, those exotics wouldn't be made, as they just wouldn't be profitable enough. People who like these figures will prefer Wizards' current scheme.

Cross your fingers that you happen to need that 'exotic' mini when the set happens to be out...

I think Wizards' line should stay.

Why the concern that it's going anywhere? Night Below is a pretty awesome set (some iffy ones, but no outright stinkers). Again, big multinational corporation vs. family business - NO CONTEST, WotC wins.

But it sure seems people feel like they have to belittle Reapers line before it even comes out...

 

[Glyfair]

Look at the wall space Games Workshop, Privateer Press, and Reaper take up at most* game stores (*yeah, I know, not at YOUR FLGS).[/SIZE]

In my area:

Games Workshop - significant space, but slightly shrinking
Privateer Press - medium and growing
Reaper - between Reaper & GW, but shrinking
DDM - one counter of display, but cases behind counter & in storage for replenishment

When Reaper starts their new line they will need to pull space from some place, and more than likely it will be Reaper's current area. When DDM puts out a new set it doesn't take up any more shelf space. By the time two or three new sets come out, two or three older sets go out of print. Being able to have a constant storage area is a big advantage to stores that often have a very limited amount of display area.

Also, keep in mind that Reaper can make the figs that DDM will never make, like the bartender, the dancing girl, and the altar of evil. While none of these are prepainted, they are in their catalog, and thus potential plastic releases.

True. I'm not sure if these would sell enough to be worth moving to plastic (given the number of people who ask for commoners in DDM, I expect they would), but certainly this is an advantage of Reaper's line.

Conversely, there are two advantage of the DDM line (to those not wedded to a single line). They can release official D&D monsters that are easily found ("what was the name of Reaper's mind flayer thingy"). Secondly, they can release miniatures that are not popular enough to release as a singles line. A large number of D&D monsters would never be made into a miniature if it wasn't for the DDM paradigm.

Both lines should do a very good job of complementing each other. Each can do something the other can't.

Cross your fingers that you happen to need that 'exotic' mini when the set happens to be out...

For the most part, exotic minis don't tend to skyrocket in price. The older ones might be harder to find, but the expensive figures are the ones that are likely to keep reappearing (look at the expensive Harbinger figures - Displacer Beast, Owlbear, etc).

But it sure seems people feel like they have to belittle Reapers line before it even comes out...

I don't think the intent is to belittle it. It is in response to people attacking the DDM model because the Reaper line is coming out.

 

[SavageRobby]

But it sure seems people feel like they have to belittle Reapers line before it even comes out...

Interesting. I see more people belittling WotC than the reverse (and this coming from a guy who mostly despises WotC - the only things I buy from them anymore are minis and dungeon tiles).


I'm glad both lines will be available. It will be interesting to see how many ppms Reaper releases over the next year. At the moment, Wizards has far more prepaints available, and unless Reaper starts releasing 300+ new ppms a year (a tall order, even with the plethora of sculpts available), Wizards will have the edge in variety for a few years. And whether people care to admit it or not, that is one of the advantages of random; you get more overall variety because they can make some edge minis that probably wouldn't sell individually, but can be included in the set.

I think, long-term, Reaper is going to have a hard time competing with Wizards on the typical commons (skeletons, goblins, orcs, etc) once the initial flush of sales is over and people compare the prices between the two. On WotC commons, the secondary market price is so low - even factoring in shipping (if one buys from sellers like Auggie and Hubbs and others with low mini prices and reasonable/fixed shipping) - that unless the Reaper paint jobs are THAT much better, Wizards will have them beat. (Or unless you hate Wizards or love Reaper, of which they are plenty of folks - but enough to float a line?)

But I do think Reaper could make a killing if they focus more on larger monsters and on really well-done PC types at reasonable prices. If they can cut into what are traditionally rares coming from WotC, especially with the standard Reaper quality, they could shift a lot of business from people that buy DDM singles from the secondary market.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Tell me that you've seen ANY LGS that doesn't have products that are slow movers. If there weren't slow movers, we wouldn't see FLGS closing left and right.

That's the point. If I were in that situation (seeing other stores like mine disappearing like people in horror movies), I wouldn't embrace a product that could very well be a slow mover. I wouldn't want to bind my capital into merchandize I'm not sure I can sell in a reasonable amount of time.

WotC has an advantage because of minimal SKUs? Couldn't be because they are WIZARDS OF THE COAST or DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS.

Yeah, but how much space does that take? The shops I have seen haven't devoted that much space to Wizards of the Coast books. Neither do they have to. The shelf space taken up by one miniatures product line (not DDM) was significantly larger than the space Wizards books took up.

Plus, remember that Wizards doesn't do small works. They don't do books like "The Book of Enchantment Magic", they do a book about all magic. They aim for books that sell in large numbers (not that they always succeed, at least not for their definition of success). Those books aren't usually slow movers.

Now take that any line of non-random miniatures. The more variety there is, the more likely it is for some figures to be exotic, to be stuff few people want. If you buy these, chances are that they will be there for quite some time. They use shop space but don't generate any revenue.

Take a loot at some Wizards figures. Do you think you would sell a lot of Wrackspawns? Dromite Wilders? Tosquasomething Psimonsters (those rare critters from Unhallowed that look like a monster shrimp, whatever their name is)? Kobold Trapmakers? Prisoners?

I don't think so, especially because there would be fewer collectors around if the game weren't collectable.

And the same goes for similar critters from other miniature lines. The same will go for Reaper's line.

Cross your fingers that you happen to need that 'exotic' mini when the set happens to be out...

As I'm collecting anyway, I'll just go get it out of my vitrine when I need it. Other people will go and get it on eBay.

Why the concern that it's going anywhere?

No concern. Just an answer for those who wish that Wizard's line will disappear.

But it sure seems people feel like they have to belittle Reapers line before it even comes out...

I'm belittling Reaper's line how?

 

[Henry]

I took my old miniature paint and used it to paint differing numbers/colors of dots on my duplicate minis, so I could keep track of them when running that encounter of - say - 40 goblins ("Red 5 went down!").

We use an even simpler means for ours - tiny scrap of paper with the damage done written in pencil, laid atop the base between the fig's legs. Single letter code for things like blind, deaf, etc. I tried color coding and numbering figs, but gave up after my collection grew so large.