Getting rid of ability bonuses/penalties for races

[NaturalZero]

That's pretty much how changelings (doppelgangers) work, as presented in the Eberron Player's Guide. Their Charisma bonus is fixed, and they get to choose an Intelligence bonus or a Dexterity bonus.

I suppose you could let them pick Cha, Dex or Int and then the second one is free floating.

 

[pawsplay]

Removing stat modifiers would make little difference from Third Edition on. However, it would add an extra step for NPC design... "What ability scores are plausible for a typical member of this race and class?"

 

[AllisterH]

From a powergaming perspective: Do this, and dwarf fighters get even better. They have tons of non-stat bonuses to make up for having 2 less strength than their peers, and it works very well. If they can get the extra strength as well, that's definite power creep.

Isn't this houserule supposed to weaken the stereotypes, not strengthen them?

This is the one I was wondering about. Even without having a +2 in a primary, Dwarves are usually considered an above average choice for fighters among the people I've talked to.

But at the same time, wouldn't it make eladrins and elves more viable as fighters as well? Elven accuracy is a BEASTLY advantage for a Great Weapon Fighter.

 

[Rechan]

STuff

Heh. I thought of doing that, but then I found a more radical approach.

WARNING: This might violate your mechanical comfort zone!

[sblock]Like some posters, I too disliked the "If I'm playing Y class, I'm better off with X race". But the bigger bugaboo for me is that you're picking a race/class combo that just doesn't make sense, in terms of fluff. For instance, halflings and Drow make great chaos and storm sorcerers, but that just... does not match the fluff.

But just letting PCs adjust their ability scores goes back to the root of the problem: the ability score arms race.

Keterys had this idea, and I totally stole it. Instead of having To-hit determined like so:

Ability Score + 1/2 Level + Proficiency + Enhancement + Feat

It's determined like so:

5 + 1/2 Level + Proficiency + Enhancement + Non-Expertise Feat
+1 at levels 5, 11, 15, 21, 25
Damage is still determined by the primary ability score bonus (I.e. if it's a Str vs. AC attack, then the damage is going to be +str).

It treats the PC as having a 20 in every stat for the purposes of attacking. This addressed several issues.

• Decreased emphasis on the primary ability score. So now there's less of a mad rush to get that 18 or 20, at the expense of your other defenses and stats.
• Race/Class combos now don't matter. Or rather, the emphasis is more on the secondary ability scores, but there's more diversity there. And even so, having a decent Primary score is important for the damage.
• Multi-classing. As it stands, you should only really multi-class into another class that shares your primary and secondary scores (a Tactical Warlord and a Swordmage, vs a Tactical Warlord and a Protective Shaman). This way, no matter the class combination, the attacks coming from either class are not hampered.
• Removing feat taxes like Expertise and Melee Training.

This does have some problems though. Characters are more powerful, because they're going to be hitting much more often with any kind of attack. It means that a Wizard and a Fighter, holding the same weapon, have equal likelihood of Hitting with a basic attack. The difference though is that the Fighter is going to do much more damage and the Fighter has Powers that involve using his weapon. Still, that makes the classes a little closer together, but I don't have a problem with this. It also is a bugger to address the Character Builder. [/sblock]

 

[kitsune9]

A general question.

If, across all editions of D&D (including Pathfinder now), if you got rid of the actual bonuses/penalties or made them generic (you can pick and choose what those bonuses/penalties were), how much would that affect the game?

Would we see more non-standard race-class matchups? And, would that be a good thing?

My take is that you wouldn't have standard tropes such as half-orcs playing brutish barbarians, fighters, and halflings playing rogues. This can be a good thing if you don't care about balance issues among the races depending upon what edition being discussed.

I would say that we probably would see more non-standard race-class matchups, but also some players probably wouldn't care about playing any other race other than human because they would feel that other races are just humans with bumps on their foreheads.

Experiment with it and let us know how it goes!

 

[lutecius]

how much would that affect the game?

In some cases, ability bonuses are factored into the "racial balance". The 4e eladrin bonuses are somewhat redundant (both add to reflex) because Feystep is better than other racial powers (I think one of the designers explicitly said so) I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If, across all editions of D&D (including Pathfinder now), if you got rid of the actual bonuses/penalties or made them generic (you can pick and choose what those bonuses/penalties were), how much would that affect the game?

More at a psychological level than anything else.

The race is kind of an archetype, and the ability modifiers are there to help impose that archetype: dwarves are tough, elves are magical, halflings are lucky, etc.

Depending on the race's other benefits, you would see more people taking races that compliment their core class with their other benefits. Namely, any big AC or damage bonuses would be preferred, probably, so the Small size, with a 12 Strength, might be practically all benefit.

But you probably wouldn't see a whole lot of people instinctively going for counter-intuitive races, because races are part of your archetype. You generally don't choose to play a dwarf because you want a dexterous, fragile mage, and if you're playing against type, part of the fun is in dealing with your restrictions.

It'd be easier to min/max or tweak out, but that's only a pretty small subset of players to begin with, so most people probably wouldn't have a major effect.

 

[doctorhook]

From a powergaming perspective: Do this, and dwarf fighters get even better. They have tons of non-stat bonuses to make up for having 2 less strength than their peers, and it works very well. If they can get the extra strength as well, that's definite power creep.

Yes, overall my houserule does make many characters (especially Humans) a little bit more powerful. However, the net effect should be that most characters are approximately as powerful as one another, regardless of whether or not the character is an archetypical race/class combination -- Dwarf Fighters become approximately as capable as Dwarf Psions, example. Thus, my houserule balances a whole bunch of "suboptimal" options by making everyone a little bit more powerful.

As for the specfic case of the Dwarf Fighter, remember that he's not getting that +2 Strength bonus for free; he trades away a +2 bonus to one of his secondary abilities for it. The trade might not be totally even -- Strength might be more useful than Wisdom, for example -- but I did admit that this houserule does make most characters a little bit stronger. Additionally, remember that even though this houserule makes Dwarves potentially even more attractive as Fighters, it also makes a lot of other races more attractive as Fighters as well. (The intention is that now a player can choose his character's race based upon what kind of character he wants to be and what racial power he wants to have, instead of getting hung up on the ability bonuses.)

Isn't this houserule supposed to weaken the stereotypes, not strengthen them?

It seems like it, but no, that's not really what it's about. The actual purpose of this houserule is to make "suboptimal" race-class combinations approximately as viable as the "optimal" ones. In a way, that's sort of like wanting to weaken stereotypes, but strengthening certain stereotypes isn't necessarily contrary to the the goal. For example, Drow Clerics and Kobold Sorcerers are good examples of stereotypical race-class combinations that aren't very "optimal" in 4E RAW, but which probably ought to be moreso. (Although the Kobold Sorcerer has an additional problem: he still sucks at Dragon Sorcery, which would otherwise be the most obvious thematic choice for him. Personally, I recommend some kind of Kobold racial feat to solve this, though I won't worry about it much until Kobolds get a PC race write-up.)

This is the one I was wondering about. Even without having a +2 in a primary, Dwarves are usually considered an above average choice for fighters among the people I've talked to.

But at the same time, wouldn't it make eladrins and elves more viable as fighters as well? Elven accuracy is a BEASTLY advantage for a Great Weapon Fighter.

Basically, yep, that's the idea; Dwarves still make great Fighters (and now Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks, Druids, Barbarians, Psions, Invokers, Wizards, and probably a bunch of other classes too), but now most other races can also make great Fighters, too. You can pick your favorite racial power and not worry about stats anymore!

 

[doctorhook]

I suppose you could let them pick Cha, Dex or Int and then the second one is free floating.

Exactly! I also take this as a sign that R&D is thinking along the same line I am.

Another weird case is with Shifters, because they're actually two separate races in one, where both share Wisdom, but one gets Strength and the other gets Dexterity. In this case, if the player picks his race (Shifter) before picking his class, he proceeds with my houserule as normal after picking which kind of Shifter he wants to be. However, if the player chooses his class or his ability scores first, then things can be a bit confusing, even though they still work the same way:

• (First of all, a Shifter character has to put a +2 bonus in at least one of Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom.)
• If the player picks Strength and any other score except for Dexterity or Wisdom, then the player is a Longtooth Shifter. For example, if the player is a Shifter Swordmage and puts his bonuses into Strength and Intelligence, then he has to be a Longtooth Shifter.
• If the player picks Dexterity and any other score except for Strength or Wisdom, then the player is a Razorclaw Shifter. For example, if the player is a Shifter Sorcerer and puts his bonuses into Dexterity and Charisma, then he has to be a Razorclaw Shifter.
• If the player picks both Strength and Dexterity, then the player can be either type of Shifter. For example, if the player is a Shifter Fighter and puts his bonuses into Strength and Dexterity, then he can be either a Longtooth or a Razorclaw.
• If the player picks Wisdom and any other ability score, then the player can be either kind of Shifter.

Looks complicated, I know, but it's really just the same as usual. This is merely the thought process you'd need to go through if you decided on your class and also chose to be a Shifter, but hadn't already decided on what kind of Shifter to be. You'd have the same problem if decided (for example) to be a Tempest Fighter, but hadn't picked between the umpteen possible races that can give you optimal ability scores for that class using my houserule.

The moral of this story is that it's probably simplest to choose your race first and your class second.

Heh. I thought of doing that, but then I found a more radical approach.

WARNING: This might violate your mechanical comfort zone!

Whoa...

Too radical for me!

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

When I do D&D now, I'm still using a heavily houseruled (and significantly higher-powered) version of 3.5.

To demonstrate, almost every race in 4E grants a static +2 bonus to two specific ability scores. With my houserule, players choose one of those two static +2 bonuses to keep, and then simply add +2 to any other ability score.

I adopted the 4e approach and gave every LA +0 race two static +2 modifiers and eliminated the majority of racial penalties. (I'm considering reducing Humans to one floating +2, but giving most other races a static -2.) Humans get two floating +2s, while Half-Orcs and Half-Elves get one static and one floating. Big part of this was attempting to reduce Level Adjustments for exotic races because they're so crippling in a Gestalt environment-- if the LA +0 races are on par with Hobgoblin and standard Planetouched, most LA +1 races can be reduced to +0. Likewise, if planetouched are improved slightly and made into templates-- like Draconic-- they can stand at +1.

With more extensive ability score bonuses-- using the Conan system-- it allows races to function well in classes outside their archetype. Perhaps not as ideally as races better suited to it, but with the support of the other class the combination can be surprisingly effective.