Getting rid of AoO-Good Idea?
- Thread starter beldar1215
- Start date
delericho
Legend
When running a demonstration game for kids, I use various simplifications, including the use of pre-gen characters, the removal of prepared spellcasting (all casting classes become spontanteous casters, and I monkey around with the classes a bit to rebalance), and the removal of AoOs. If I were intending to make 'proper' players of them, I would later gradually introduce the full weight of the rules.
When running without a battlemat, I again drop AoOs. I just find it easier and quicker to run without them.
For certain swashbuckling styles of game, I again drop AoOs.
In general, I don't find AoOs too complicated. But I don't always feel they are appropriate to the style of the game. And dropping them is not terribly difficult, although it's best to let the players know early so they don't stock up on Combat Reflexes and Combat Casting feats.
When running without a battlemat, I again drop AoOs. I just find it easier and quicker to run without them.
For certain swashbuckling styles of game, I again drop AoOs.
In general, I don't find AoOs too complicated. But I don't always feel they are appropriate to the style of the game. And dropping them is not terribly difficult, although it's best to let the players know early so they don't stock up on Combat Reflexes and Combat Casting feats.
TheNovaLord
First Post
Turanil said:
so really speed up combat by doing away with disarm, grappole, trip, etc as well and just have simple hitting each other for combat
JohnD
Leave the AoO's, but make sure the bad guys provoke as often as the PCs do. Many DM's with experience unintentionaly let their NPCs run circles around the PCs.
As an aside, one thing I've found slows up play for newbies is the diagonal movement rules. Just go with 5' per space and it makes things go a little faster.
As an aside, one thing I've found slows up play for newbies is the diagonal movement rules. Just go with 5' per space and it makes things go a little faster.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
We dropped it. It speeded up combat tenfold. We still use reach. If you aproach someone with reach, his reach trumps initiative. You must make a concentration check to cast a spell in melee or you lose the spell, regardless of whether you are hit or not. Works fine for us.
I'll also add that we didn't drop AOOS because we didn't understand them. We know how they work. We just prefer faster combat.
I'll also add that we didn't drop AOOS because we didn't understand them. We know how they work. We just prefer faster combat.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
I think the biggest impact of dropping AoOs is in character advancement, specifically with respect to a couple of skills, several feats, prestige classes, and spellcasting. Tumble is rendered useless, as are Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, and Spring Attack. There are feat chains that start with those feats, and the upper ones are suddenly much more expensive because you have to buy totally useless feats to get to them. The same happens to prestige classes. Further, some class abilities become pointless, like the duelist's improved mobility. Dervishes and scouts have nothing to prevent them from doing their little dances of ruin.
Other things that are affected: all the special combat options are more likely to happen because they no longer provoke AoOs, while their corresponding feats are simultaneously decreased in value. The squishy mage is going to be a much more attractive target for monsters to attack because there's nothing the tank can do to stop the monster from getting there.
That being said, the game runs relatively smoothly without AoOs. It's just that there are long term effects that make it harder for players to understand what changes in the relative value of their PC choices.
-blarg
Other things that are affected: all the special combat options are more likely to happen because they no longer provoke AoOs, while their corresponding feats are simultaneously decreased in value. The squishy mage is going to be a much more attractive target for monsters to attack because there's nothing the tank can do to stop the monster from getting there.
That being said, the game runs relatively smoothly without AoOs. It's just that there are long term effects that make it harder for players to understand what changes in the relative value of their PC choices.
-blarg
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
I'm in the "AoOs are both simple and fun" camp. I've seen combat slowed down way more by counting pips on a lot of six sided dice, resolving multiple attacks, or picking spells than by AoOs -- assuming you take a little time to understand the rules (and the summary above is great!). AoOs add a lot to the tactical nature of the game, which I really enjoy in this latest edition.
Why not try and teach the AoO rules? They aren't hard, and with the age kids you're talking about, I'm sure they'll pick it up faster than you think.
That said, if you're going to eliminate them, there's a lot of work to do to keep the game consistent. Many existing balance mechanisms in the game are AoOs. How does a bowman or caster work when close to a melee combatant, for example? I'd recommend taking the Basic Game approach, and just prohibit actions that currently draw AoOs in threatened spaces.
Why not try and teach the AoO rules? They aren't hard, and with the age kids you're talking about, I'm sure they'll pick it up faster than you think.
That said, if you're going to eliminate them, there's a lot of work to do to keep the game consistent. Many existing balance mechanisms in the game are AoOs. How does a bowman or caster work when close to a melee combatant, for example? I'd recommend taking the Basic Game approach, and just prohibit actions that currently draw AoOs in threatened spaces.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
beldar1215 said:
Just do it.
I tend toward being a Balance Nazi and I do not see this as such a big deal. I even like the AoO rules. Lots of combat intensive games make do without this mechanic.
You will want to make certain actions like grapple harder to accomplish. A flat +2 or +4 penalty should be good enough unless you up against a skilled powergamer.
The real question is not whether normal grapples, trips, etc. will become too good. Those who have an effective/intimidating AoO are already difficult to trip, disarm, or grapple.
