Getting rid of Cross-Class skills

[Stalker0]

I have never like the 3e skill system, and I hate the cross-class system for many reasons:

1) Its complicated. My players ask all the time is this cross-class is that cross-class. And it makes adding up points difficult. It get even more complicated for multiclassing.

2 It makes no sense. Someone, being a rogue gives me innate access to all these trainers that can teach me escape artist and such, while the fighter couldn't learn any of that. I mean, fighters should be trainable in ambushing, escaping from prisons if there captured, etc.

3) It creates imbalances in opposed rolls. The trained rogue with his hide check can beat a trained fighter with his spot check any day of the week. This annoys me greatly.

So basically, I want to make all cross-class skills class skills for everyone. However, the restricted skills remain where they are.

I know this is a major change, and two major things I have to do to make it work.

1) Adjust the number of skill points for each class to adjust to the new list. While getting this right would be an art, its not overly complicated in what must be done.

2) Adjust the skills for balance. This is the tricky one. One good thing about cross-class is it does make certain inherently weaker skills better for some classes. when this is eliminated, some skills just pop out as the skills to get, even if they don't already do that now.

I would like suggestions on how to balance out some of the weaker skills with this system so that most of the skills see use. While my campaign can obviously make certain skills better than they are now, I can only do that so much. Also feedback, if anyone has ever tried something like this would be helpful.

My one thought right now, would be to have one point buy multiple ranks in certain skills. Climb, Jump, and Swim come to mind. Note that while the max ranks would remain the same, the amount of points needed would drop making such skills more attractive.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I have never like the 3e skill system, and I hate the cross-class system for many reasons:

1) Its complicated. My players ask all the time is this cross-class is that cross-class. And it makes adding up points difficult. It get even more complicated for multiclassing.

It's not that bad. You only need to look it up when gaining a level.

2 It makes no sense. Someone, being a rogue gives me innate access to all these trainers that can teach me escape artist and such, while the fighter couldn't learn any of that. I mean, fighters should be trainable in ambushing, escaping from prisons if there captured, etc.

Fighters CAN learn that sort of stuff. Rogues are better than average at that sort of thing.

3) It creates imbalances in opposed rolls. The trained rogue with his hide check can beat a trained fighter with his spot check any day of the week. This annoys me greatly.

What would be the point of playing a Rogue if your skills (the Rogues main ability) were no better than a Fighter?

So basically, I want to make all cross-class skills class skills for everyone. However, the restricted skills remain where they are.

This makes classes with better skill lists (Ranger, Rogue, Bard) worse in comparison.

Geoff.

 

[Stalker0]

Re: Re: Getting rid of Cross-Class skills

This makes classes with better skill lists (Ranger, Rogue, Bard) worse in comparison.

Geoff.

That's where change number 1 comes in. So while the fighter might have access to a lot of skills, he's skill points are nill. Ranger, Rogues, and Bards would probably get more skill points under this system, and so would still be the skill kings.

 

[Crothian]

THe DMG has guidelines for altering classes so you can have a fighter with escape artist and spot as class skills.

THis will really make many prestige classes much easier for anyone to get into as well as hindering feats like skill focus and alertness.

 

[Stalker0]

THe DMG has guidelines for altering classes so you can have a fighter with escape artist and spot as class skills.

THis will really make many prestige classes much easier for anyone to get into as well as hindering feats like skill focus and alertness.

I've looked at the DMG stuff, but its not really in the ballpark of the magnitude I'm talking about. ANd your right the prestige stuff, is something I'll have to consider. Normally my players don't mess with PRC's too much so its not a large problem. And its not just the fighter I'm talking about, this is a change that will effect all classes.

 

[tburdett]

I've seen two house rule systems for this.

The first, simply count the number of class skills available to each class and instead allow the player to create their own class skill list based upon that number.

This system will not work if you can't trust your players to pick skills that help to define their class. For example, Clerics should put some points in Knowledge: Religion.

Another system that I've seen used is the 'Once a class skill, always a class skill'. If you are a Rogue and then multi-class to Fighter, all of your Rogue class skills remain class skills. This system seems to encourage more multi-classing, which could be a good or bad thing depending on the campaign and DM.

 

[nutluck]

Well something my group did as we felt simliar as you do it this.

Cross class skills cost the same as normal skills, but are still limited by how high they can go. This still makes classes with big skills list important, it lets classes branch out more but no matter what the rogue will always be better at MS and Hide than any fighter. So far this minor adjusted has proven to work well for us.

 

[Stalker0]

Well something my group did as we felt simliar as you do it this.

Cross class skills cost the same as normal skills, but are still limited by how high they can go. This still makes classes with big skills list important, it lets classes branch out more but no matter what the rogue will always be better at MS and Hide than any fighter. So far this minor adjusted has proven to work well for us.

Thanks for teh suggestions. But I still don't like the idea that a fighter (or most other classes for that matter HAVE to be inept at hiding or move silently)

I may go with the pick your own class lists idea, but then again its not hard to see what skills most people will pick. There is definate skill imbalance in the game, and I'll have to tweak it to make the new system work.

 

[JohnClark]

What I would like to see is some system where by you can choose a few class skills. For instance, if my fighter was a guard at Candlekeep I'd like him to be able to have knowledge (arcana), etc etc. Some system that allows for a few class skills due to background.

 

[Margaiaman]

Try the d20 Modern method.

d20 Modern has starting Occupations, these give a choice of two or three skills that you now have as class skills. If you chose skills you already have, you get a +1 competence bonus to those skills. This lets you branch out with skills that fit the 'background' of the character.

In a fantasy setting I would probably call them starting backgrounds or something like that. I think this might work it out nicely without a major overhaul of the system.