D&D 5E Getting rid of the short rest: The answer to Linear Fighter vs Quadratic Wizard?

[The Crimson Binome]

First off let's talk a bit more about the idea that it's incredibly difficult to play the game if spell slots aren't character information. A character doesn't have to know exactly how many spell slots are left or even that spell slots exist in order to have a general awareness of how much magical power he currently has left. It's that general awareness that is required. The player can translate his exact knowledge of how many spell slots are left into less specific character knowledge in order to easily play the game.

If a level 13 wizard has only used their level 7 spell slot, then generally speaking, they still have most of their mojo left and should still be just fine for the foreseeable future. But they can't cast another level 7 spell, no matter what, until after the next long rest. If the character acts on the less-specific knowledge that they still have most of their power, then they should act as though they can cast another level 7 spell, even though they can't. And what, then? Should they just act surprised, when they can't pull off another teleport, even though they could fire off half a dozen fireballs?

The rules of the game reflect the reality of the game world, but they are limited in how much information can actually be conveyed through the printed medium of a game that needs to be playable without a computer. The actual reality of the game world is more complex than the rules of the game, not less.

 

[FrogReaver]

If a level 13 wizard has only used their level 7 spell slot, then generally speaking, they still have most of their mojo left and should still be just fine for the foreseeable future. But they can't cast another level 7 spell, no matter what, until after the next long rest. If the character acts on the less-specific knowledge that they still have most of their power, then they should act as though they can cast another level 7 spell, even though they can't. And what, then? Should they just act surprised, when they can't pull off another teleport, even though they could fire off half a dozen fireballs?

The rules of the game reflect the reality of the game world, but they are limited in how much information can actually be conveyed through the printed medium of a game that needs to be playable without a computer. The actual reality of the game world is more complex than the rules of the game, not less.

Good question. There are a ton of options here.
1. Character can feel the magical connections that allowed him to teleport are diminshed and he knows he can't do it again just yet.
2. Character believes he will be able to cast again, later finds out when wanting to that he cannot and improvises from there.
3. Character simply never desires to cast teleport again (till the player knows the slot is regained) and no explanation is needed as it doesn't come up (as the player controls the characters actions) this can be guaranteed to occur

Basically pick whichever explanation is the more fun or makes the most sense at the time. I'm sure there's countless other explanations. The point is that you are free to explain or not explain why you didn't cast teleport however you want to in game. In fact if you never try to cast it, what other character in game can say it was impossible for you to do so?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

1. Character can feel the magical connections that allowed him to teleport are diminshed and he knows he can't do it again just yet.

That sounds a lot like the character just knows about spell slots.

2. Character believes he will be able to cast again, later finds out when wanting to that he cannot and improvises from there.

That sounds like you're roleplaying a buffoon, who doesn't even understand how their own powers work. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if you particularly want to play the bumbling wizard comic relief character, but it's hardly heroic.

3. Character simply never desires to cast teleport again (till the player knows the slot is regained) and no explanation is needed as it doesn't come up (as the player controls the characters actions) this can be guaranteed to occur

This is illegal meta-gaming. It is not allowed under the rules of the game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So I got to wondering, what if we got rid of the short rest? We would then alter existing abilities that refresh on a short rest to instead become encounter abilities similar to 4e.

So what would be the potential consequences?

1) Short rest powers would need to be reduced in number to allow for balance, since these were initially meant to be used over 2-3 encounters.

They're meant to be used in a 'day' of 2-3 short rests. In terms of class balance, it'd mean you could run 3 or 4 encounter days instead of 6-8 encounter days. They'd be much tougher and more meaningful encounters, of course, as it would shift encounter balance.

2) This would allow martial characters to no longer have the sense of an artificial limit per rest how often they can do something. Instead, they will always have at least one use every encounter.

I'm not sure that's a whole lot less artificial. And, casters would still have the neo-Vancian/3.x-Sorcerer-slot-casting tendency towards 'spamming' the best spell for the current situation rather than varying things most encounters.

4) What value do Hit Die have in a system where there are no short rests? I have an idea for that.

You could just use them after any given encounter.

5) How does one capture non-combat encounters?

'don't' is certainly an option. No initiative, no encounter.

Now, one of the things addressed by this is helping short rest characters (such as largely martial characters) get a bit of a power bump. This relates to another issue I have frequently heard argued on the boards of the linear fighter versus the quadratic wizard. So I was thinking, perhaps if we look at an adjustment to certain long rest abilities, we can reduce the power of higher level magic uses to bring everyone more in line of relative power balance.

It wouldn't really help the old LFQW problem much, though, you still have most classes, full casters, vastly increasing versatility with level, while all classes increase in damage potential, general toughness, and basic competence (proficiency) at about the same rate.
Besides, Warlocks would also benefit.

My thought is that any spell of 6th level or higher does not automatically recharge on a long rest.

That pushes the issue to a different time-frame, but it still remains. Uses/time 'limitations' don't balance unless everyone's using the same time.

1) Is this adjustment reasonable?

It is no less reasonable than the standard rules.

2) What potential impacts/consequences have I not considered or foreseen?

You'll probably note there's less of an impact than you might expect.

3) Does this actually accomplish what I'm attempting to do (eliminate short rests in a reasonable fashion while reducing linear fighter vs quadratic wizard issues)?

Yes, it's a reasonable way of eliminating the arbitrary short rest. No, it will not much reduce the LFQW issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

That sounds a lot like the character just knows about spell slots.
That sounds like you're roleplaying a buffoon, who doesn't even understand how their own powers work. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if you particularly want to play the bumbling wizard comic relief character, but it's hardly heroic.
This is illegal meta-gaming. It is not allowed under the rules of the game.

Shifting the conversation toward the last piece because I think we have both made our points on the first parts.

1. Knowing about spell slots entails knowing precisely how many slots you currently have of each level. The 1st explanation I provided doesn't put that info on character level but it does provide a framework where a character can know when he's incapable of casting a specific spell again. As noted that's much different than knowing about spell slots.

2. Not knowing how magic works because it's unpredictable is alot different than being a buffoon about magic.

3. It's not metagaming to provide the explanation that my character didn't want to do X when on the player level he was actually incapable of doing X as long as an obvious need for the ability in question doesn't exist. In those situations obviously we would use a different explanation.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Not knowing how magic works because it's unpredictable is alot different than being a buffoon about magic.

There are limits to how unpredictable magic can be, which are circumscribed by the rules of the game. If the rules say that a particular wizard has one level 7 spell slot per day, then no matter how complicated the underlying reality of magic may be, we know it's not so complicated that this wizard will have more or less than exactly one level 7 spell slot on any given day.

It's like, real life has a bunch of super simple and consistent observations that describe everything we have to deal with on a daily basis (Newtonian physics), but it also has a bunch of complicated underlying stuff which explains how it actually works on a deeper level (relativity, etc). You don't get to be a powerful engineer/wizard without understanding the part that's simple and consistent, which you use every single day of your life. Not everyone you meet on the street may have it figured out, and you may not know any of the deeper secrets (although there's a good chance that you might), but you should at least know the basics.

 

[77IM]

Here is a house rule I've considered.

Important: I allow stacking Inspiration. That is, you can get Inspiration if you already have it, and track a number of Inspiration "points" you have to spend. You can only spend one per roll, though. I'm sure I'm not the only DM who does this, but I'm not sure how common it is. But this rule only makes sense if you allow accumulation of multiple Inspirations.

Ok here comes the rule...

Every rest takes 1 hour. You can spend a point of Inspiration to make it count as a long rest. Otherwise a rest only counts as a short rest.​

The idea here is that short-rest-focussed classes can go longer without a long rest and actually get a game benefit, in that they can have more Inspiration to use on other things. Meanwhile, taking a long rest no longer requires 8 hours, so it's easier to fit into the story when you actually need it. For example, you can patch up and recharge right before the big boss fight, instead of after it, which makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Sorry, I'm dead tired so this will be short.

Why not develop an "Energy Point" system then? Assign some formula to levels and spells , and decide if an ability is Offensive, Defensive, Utility or "Mana" (if it's a spell). Now come up with a new 'stat' that everyone has and call it something like "Energy Regeneration" or "Revitalization". Have that regeneration be X...or X*2 when resting... or X*3 when sleeping.

From what I read in the thread, your system is likely going to take some book-keeping anyway.

Ex: A 7th level Cleric wants to "Turn Undead". Lets say the base cost is 2*Level. If he tries turning at his full level, 7th, it will cost him 14 Energy. As these are Skeletons, the player opts to only turn as if he was 3rd level...so it only costs him 6 Energy. Next, the 7th Wizard wants to finish off the straggler with a Magic Missile. Lets say the base cost is also 2*Spell Level + Caster Level. He doesn't want to open up with a full barrage, so he decides to cast it as if he was only 4th Level. It would cost him 6 Energy.

Note: I did NOT actually put any effort into working out the numbers. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what might work if you are trying to "apply it to everyone in the game" (re: Fighters, Thieves, Sorcerers, etc). Reason for two modifiers for spells is that spells actual effectiveness is a combination of both the spells level and the level of the person doing the casting (or item).

Anyway...just a thought. It's nap time for me now. Nighty night!

^_^

Paul L. Ming