Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Olaf the Stout]

Weaknesses:

1) Its really big. Huge, in fact. So it can't really fit into many environments. This must have been a very large river.

2) It has a really low AC. Fighters should be power-attacking the heck out of it. A fourth level barbarian with 18 str (+4 raging) and maxed out power attacks should be doing 7 weapon + 9 str + 8 power attack = 24 HP of damage per round. That means it drops in 2-3 rounds. From just one character's damage.

3) It has an even lower touch AC. That means mages should be using nasty ranged touch attack or touch spells on it. Even Ray of Enfeeblement helps tone down its damage. Touch of Idiocy takes it out of the fight by reducing its intelligence to zero.

4) It has poor Will saving throws. If you throw a decent will save (illusions, charms, holds, etc) at it, it'll likely fail.

5) It can only drag down one victim at a time, leaving the rest of the party free to have a free for all on it.

All of these things are readily observable: Very large animals often have poor AC, poor will saves, and poor mobility. If the party didn't exploit any of these weaknesses, no wonder it did very well.

I really dislike the 3.5 size rules where all creatures are square in shape. As per RAW a huge croc should be as wide as it is long but that doesn't make sense to me. Hence I allowed it to swim in the river that was only 10-15 ft. wide.

Of course the Barbarian can't do much if he loses initiative and gets grappled (at a very healthy +21 Grapple check). All it would take is 3 bites (average damage of over 20) and he's dead. Low AC definitely is a weakness though. Its 50+ HP's make up for this a little though.

Believe it or not the other Sorcerer in the party managed to miss with 2 ranged touch attacks against the croc. His rolls have really sucked in the last couple of months it wasn't that surprising!

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just to clarify my rules knowledge some more. Once the croc has him pinned in his mouth, shouldn't he get the bite damage automatically each round though? How can he "miss" him when he's in his mouth?

He gets bite damage automatically on each successful grapple check he makes.

A failed grapple check might indicate that, while he didn't 'miss' his target, the target was able to keep his jaws from closing any further and dealing more damage, for example.

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

I really dislike the 3.5 size rules where all creatures are square in shape. As per RAW a huge croc should be as wide as it is long but that doesn't make sense to me. Hence I allowed it to swim in the river that was only 10-15 ft. wide.

Of course the Barbarian can't do much if he loses initiative and gets grappled (at a very healthy +21 Grapple check). All it would take is 3 bites (average damage of over 20) and he's dead. Low AC definitely is a weakness though. Its 50+ HP's make up for this a little though.

Believe it or not the other Sorcerer in the party managed to miss with 2 ranged touch attacks against the croc. His rolls have really sucked in the last couple of months it wasn't that surprising!

Olaf the Stout

It sounds like you were giving the crocodile a couple environmental advantages that made the encounter more difficult, then. A huge creature in a 10' wide environment should probably have been subject to the squeezing rules (or alternately not hidden), distracted characters should probably just be taking penalties on their spot checks rather than losing them entirely...

Now, the rules may make no sense to you, and I may even agree with you but the CRs are determined with those in mind. Making changes that favor a given creature are going to make it relatively more difficult to defeat.

This strikes me as an encounter that might, in a published module, have one of those little blurbs saying "due to the creature's environmental advantage in this encounter location, award an extra 20% experience for its defeat" or some such.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

He gets bite damage automatically on each successful grapple check he makes.

A failed grapple check might indicate that, while he didn't 'miss' his target, the target was able to keep his jaws from closing any further and dealing more damage, for example.

-Hyp.

Can you point me to where it actually says this in the rules Hyp? I'm not doubting you, I just couldn't find anything that said this in the rules.

Thanks,

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

It sounds like you were giving the crocodile a couple environmental advantages that made the encounter more difficult, then. A huge creature in a 10' wide environment should probably have been subject to the squeezing rules (or alternately not hidden), distracted characters should probably just be taking penalties on their spot checks rather than losing them entirely...

Now, the rules may make no sense to you, and I may even agree with you but the CRs are determined with those in mind. Making changes that favor a given creature are going to make it relatively more difficult to defeat.

This strikes me as an encounter that might, in a published module, have one of those little blurbs saying "due to the creature's environmental advantage in this encounter location, award an extra 20% experience for its defeat" or some such.

I understand that, but even notwithstanding the advantages that it had, I think that it is too powerful for its CR. All it takes is one successful bite (average damage of 21 points) and most 4th level PC's will start to see their life flash before theit eyes. Not many 4th level PC's will beat the Improved Grapple when the croc has a +21 grapple modifier.

Unless the PC's can keep it at a distance for the whole encounter, I think 1 PC will have a very good chance of dying. For most 4th level PC's a successful bite is as good as dead.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Christian]

Just to clarify my rules knowledge some more. Once the croc has him pinned in his mouth, shouldn't he get the bite damage automatically each round though? How can he "miss" him when he's in his mouth?

Once the fighter is in his mouth, the croc can do bite damage with a successful grapple check-it doesn't need to roll to hit his AC, so (especially with its size bonus) it has a much higher chance to do damage. But it has to pick--with one attack per round, it can either try to pin (adjusting its hold to get a more solid, inescapable grip), or try to inflict damage (getting closer to the kill, but risking the prey escaping). Most crocs will try to get the pin first, because it can then drag the virtually helpless prey to the bottom of the river/lake/whatever and finish it at its leisure.

So-surprise round is bite, damage, grapple (free check from improved grab), second round is pin, third round is dive (another grapple check needed here to move the grapple, but at +4 for the pinned opponent), fourth (and later) round is bite (using grapple checks), while the victim's colleagues in the boat are yelling, "What do you mean, you didn't prepare water breathing today? Didn't you know we were going to be on a boat?!"

(Alternatively, 1) bite/grapple, 2) dive, and 3) pin--possibly more realistic tactics for a croc. OTOH, my authority for this is basically that this is what happened to the fictional lead of the movie Crocodile Dundee, which was not exactly a documentary, so take that for what it's worth.)

 

[IanB]

I understand that, but even notwithstanding the advantages that it had, I think that it is too powerful for its CR. All it takes is one successful bite (average damage of 21 points) and most 4th level PC's will start to see their life flash before theit eyes. Not many 4th level PC's will beat the Improved Grapple when the croc has a +21 grapple modifier.

Unless the PC's can keep it at a distance for the whole encounter, I think 1 PC will have a very good chance of dying. For most 4th level PC's a successful bite is as good as dead.

Olaf the Stout

Your average hp totals at 4th level with a pretty standard 14 con and max hp on the first die, by class:

d4 classes: 20.5
d6 classes: 24.5
d8 classes: 29.5
d10 classes: 34.5
d12 classes: 39.5

So, yes, one hit is a good chunk of damage. A couple things to note, though - +11 isn't going to be automatic against the likely fighter ACs of 20ish, and unless the crocodile is attacking from ambush it isn't terribly likely that it is going to be attacking one of the weaker targets, because its huge size and slow speed will make it hard for it to maneuver past the fighters.

Looking at other CR 4 monsters, it seems pretty comparable to the other animals at least, although reach does give it an advantage to be sure. It is awfully slow though. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather fight the crocodile than a polar bear or a rhinoceros. There's also the 5 headed hydra and the CR 4 dragons to worry about - the very young green would seem to be especially dangerous with its mobility and 4d6 breath weapon.

Again, strong CR 4 that is enhanced by encountering it in the water for sure.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can you point me to where it actually says this in the rules Hyp?

Under Improved Grab:

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

So-surprise round is bite, damage, grapple (free check from improved grab), second round is pin, third round is dive (another grapple check needed here to move the grapple, but at +4 for the pinned opponent), fourth (and later) round is bite (using grapple checks)...

The +4 won't apply, because the fighter is no longer pinned in round 3.

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack).

If you pin someone in round 2, they're pinned until just before your turn in round 3.

So if the crocodile wants to benefit from the +4, he needs to move the grapple in the same round that he pins the fighter... and since moving the grapple requires a standard action (not just an attack), it's difficult to manage without being a Choker...

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Your average hp totals at 4th level with a pretty standard 14 con and max hp on the first die, by class:

d4 classes: 20.5
d6 classes: 24.5
d8 classes: 29.5
d10 classes: 34.5
d12 classes: 39.5

So, yes, one hit is a good chunk of damage. A couple things to note, though - +11 isn't going to be automatic against the likely fighter ACs of 20ish, and unless the crocodile is attacking from ambush it isn't terribly likely that it is going to be attacking one of the weaker targets, because its huge size and slow speed will make it hard for it to maneuver past the fighters.

Looking at other CR 4 monsters, it seems pretty comparable to the other animals at least, although reach does give it an advantage to be sure. It is awfully slow though. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather fight the crocodile than a polar bear or a rhinoceros. There's also the 5 headed hydra and the CR 4 dragons to worry about - the very young green would seem to be especially dangerous with its mobility and 4d6 breath weapon.

Again, strong CR 4 that is enhanced by encountering it in the water for sure.

At +11 to hit it probably has a 35-50% chance of hitting with its bite. Once it does that it is going to kill most Wizards/Sorcerers with one average bite and almost all 4th level characters with 2 bites. Considering that it is almost impossible for characters to win a grapple check against it I still think that it is too powerful for a CR4.

I don't know the other animals well enough to comment but in regards to dragons, I find that they are generally very powerful for their CR (and I think that WotC did this on purpose). I don't have a problem with that as, since I know in advance I can take that into account.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Stalker0]

Actually you were being nice in this fight, what the croc could have done is this:

Surprise: Bite (+grapple)
1st round: Grapple check to pull opponent half speed (under the water)
2nd Round: Pin and suffocate or grapple to crush with teeth.

That way most of the party couldn't have done anything to the creature.