Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Hypersmurf]

(This also implies an adjustment of the 50/50 rule when the grapplers are very different in size ...)

Note that there isn't a 50/50 rule as such; you cited it correctly earlier in the post as 'determine randomly'.

A 20/80 chance for striking a Medium vs a Large grappler is still 'determining randomly', for instance... and doesn't require any modification of what actually appears in the rules.

-Hyp.

 

[Christian]

To read "You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round" as "You can hold your opponent immobile until he succeeds at breaking the pin" is not reading it less literally; it's chucking away the rule and replacing it with something different...?

I understand what you're saying. But what, then, does it mean below that, when it says that "Once you've pinned your opponent ... you can attempt to move the grapple"? Or that "You can't ... retrieve a spell component ..."? There's some obvious tension here--either the pin can continue for another round without another pin attempt being made, or the writers are making offhand comments about some very unusual situations. (If you somehow have the ability to take a standard action in the same round after an attack, you can move the grapple after pinning your opponent; even if you somehow have the ability to take a full round action in the same round, you still can't attempt to retrieve a spell component.) Or, they're saying (without, sadly, saying it explicitly) that you can maintain a pin that you establish on a previous round by taking certain other grappling actions than 'pin your opponent'. (If, on the round after pinning an opponent, you take the actions 'damage your opponent', 'user opponent's weapon', or 'move', or use the disarm action, then your opponent remains pinned; if you take other actions, he does not.) I really don't know how to make sense of the grappling rules as a whole with any other interpretation.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the crocodile had a +6 BAB (assuming a normal round, not a surprise round), he could attempt to pin in the same round, but a successful check would not yield extra bite damage then either, because it is each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds that deals the bite damage... not the establishing round.

Do you really allow a natural weapon bite + improved grab + iterative grapple check? Or, do you mean that the iterative grapple checks occur in rounds following the improved grab?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do you really allow a natural weapon bite + improved grab + iterative grapple check?

Why not?

You have a BAB of +6 and Improved Grab. You take the Full Attack action; you hit with your +6 bite attack, and successfully establish a grapple. You are now grappling, so the text under "If You're Grappling" is applicable.

This text states that if your BAB allows you multiple attacks, you can take [certain options] in place of an attack. Your BAB does; you cannot make a second bite attack, since the rules for natural weapons prohibit it, but what stops you attempting something else (like Pin) using your +1 BAB iterative attack?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I understand what you're saying. But what, then, does it mean below that, when it says that "Once you've pinned your opponent ... you can attempt to move the grapple"?

It means that if you arrive at the situation where you are pinning someone and have a standard action available, you can attempt to move the grapple as described in the previous section...

Or that "You can't ... retrieve a spell component ..."? ... even if you somehow have the ability to take a full round action in the same round, you still can't attempt to retrieve a spell component.)

That's what it says - you may not retrieve a spell component while pinning an opponent.

Or, they're saying (without, sadly, saying it explicitly) that you can maintain a pin that you establish on a previous round by taking certain other grappling actions than 'pin your opponent'.

How so? It only holds them immobile for 1 round...?

Under the reading of "The writers are describing unusual situations", the rules all work as written without the need to make new things up. Under the reading of "Certain actions extend a pin", you need to add a new sentence that says "Certain actions extend a pin"...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Why not?

Because you can only do so if "your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks." That only occurs in an iterative attack sequence and thus when one of your attacks is a natural weapon, your base attack bonus does not allow you multiple attacks.

This text states that if your BAB allows you multiple attacks, you can take [certain options] in place of an attack. Your BAB does; you cannot make a second bite attack, since the rules for natural weapons prohibit it, but what stops you attempting something else (like Pin) using your +1 BAB iterative attack?

The definition of the allowance of multiple attacks rules out natural weapons. You have no definition for that clause otherwise.

 

[Stalker0]

The argument for multiple grapples is moot when it comes to the croc, it only has a BAB of +5 anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because you can only do so if "your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks." That only occurs in an iterative attack sequence and thus when one of your attacks is a natural weapon, your base attack bonus does not allow you multiple attacks.

Hmm... no, when your primary attack is a natural weapon, your BAB doesn't.

Let's say I have a bite attack and a longsword. I could make iterative attacks with the longsword (+6/+1) and a bite as a secondary attack (+1), right?

Let's say I have a bite attack and no longsword. I could make iterative attacks with an unarmed strike (+6/+1) and a bite as a secondary attack (+1), right?

Let's say I have a bite attack and no longsword; I could make a bite attack as a secondary attack (+1), triggering Improved Grab if it hits, and leaving me with two iterative attacks (+6/+1) that I can use for Grapple tricks like Pin or Damage Opponent instead of making unarmed strikes... right?

So if the advanced crocodile with the +6 BAB (advanced one hit die, say) is willing to treat his bite as a secondary attack, is there any reason he couldn't Bite at +1, trigger Improved Grab, then use the Damage Opponent option twice (at +6/+1) to deal damage equivalent to his bite via Improved Grab?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Let's say I have a bite attack and a longsword. I could make iterative attacks with the longsword (+6/+1) and a bite as a secondary attack (+1), right?

Let's say I have a bite attack and no longsword. I could make iterative attacks with an unarmed strike (+6/+1) and a bite as a secondary attack (+1), right?

Yes on both.

Let's say I have a bite attack and no longsword; I could make a bite attack as a secondary attack (+1), triggering Improved Grab if it hits, and leaving me with two iterative attacks (+6/+1) that I can use for Grapple tricks like Pin or Damage Opponent instead of making unarmed strikes... right?

No. There can be no bait and switch. If you're using an unarmed strike as the weapon to achieve the iterative attacks, then you use the unarmed strike, not a non-weapon. This concept only works if you rule that unarmed attack is a weapon, which neither of us do (I think you don't anyway).

So, the advanced croc could bite at a penalty and then toss in a few jabs while grappling, if the DM ruled it intelligent enough (I wouldn't).

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. There can be no bait and switch. If you're using an unarmed strike as the weapon to achieve the iterative attacks, then you use the unarmed strike, not a non-weapon.

If I'm a human Ftr6 who's grappling, can I Pin and Damage even though I'm not using a weapon to do it? If so, where are the iterative attacks coming from?

-Hyp.