Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Christian]

More likely, they were there to deal with Haste. I could be wrong, but have the grapple rules changed from 3.0 to 3.5? Is this an artifact of 3.0 Haste?

That whole section is new--the only section in the 3.0 grapple rules about pinning refer to what the pinned character can do on his turn.

In fact, I see what happened, now that I've dug out my old PHB. The verbiage that the pin lasts for one round is verbatim from the 3.0 grapple rules. It looks like they got a neat idea about allowing the pinning character to do other things, but didn't update the description of the pin action to match. Kind of like the unrevised spring attack verbiage, that under the 3.5 action rules lets you take two move actions and make an attack ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Kind of like the unrevised spring attack verbiage, that under the 3.5 action rules lets you take two move actions and make an attack ...

Although it has since been revised, in the Special Edition 3.5 PHB, so that you are now required to spend a move action while Spring Attacking...

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Olaf, this scene is kind of amusing since, IIRC, the archer PC was your problem player some time ago since he was near-invincible. I hope he learned humility on this one ...

It is indeed the exact same archer PC I asked for help in challenging in a thread on the General board. It was surprising considering this wasn't intended to be a "lay the smack down on the archer" encounter. It was just an ordinary combat encounter that really surprised me with the outcome. The Archer just happened to be the PC at the end of the boat. I'm certainly glad that it was the Archer and not anyone else since I don't think any of the other PC's had enough HP's to survive the attack.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

That would be akin to walking down a 10' wide dungeon corridor and coming across a Tyrannosaurus Rex, Elephant, or Remorhaz. As a player, I'd expect to be running into ogre-sized things, not huge things. In this environment, I'd expect to run across regular crocodiles -- medium creatures that could fit in the river -- and not giant ones that could straddle the width of the stream without trying.

Being really big in 3.5 gives lots of advantages (awesome grapple checks, reach, strength bonuses, etc.). One of the biggest disadvantages is limited mobility.

I think that if the monster got around its limited mobility -- one of its significant weaknesses -- due to a house rule it should probably be considered to be a CR or two higher.

So would you also not expect a Huge or Gargantuan Snake after walking down a long 10ft corridor? A T-Rex is a lot taller than a Crocodile. The only reason why the Crocodile is considered to be a "Huge" size is because of its length. It certainly isn't anywhere near as wide as it is long.

I understand your point about limited mobility being one of its weaknesses but it seems silly to me that something like an ordinary horse should have trouble fitting down a 5ft wide corridor. Yes, it can fit as per the RAW but it has to move at half speed to do so. That doesn't make sense IMO.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The only rules that at all imply he couldn't are the mounted combat rules and the rules about targeting a grappled character with a missile weapon. The rule about large mounts (a fighter riding a giant crocodile would be considered to occupy all nine squares) don't really seem relevant. But the rule about missile fire striking a grappler randomly imply that there's a lot of moving about within the grappling area--it's hard to say that there's one square that the fighter is in.

I'd say you're free to rule as you wish on this--I don't see any clear indications as to how this would work. The way I would do it is, determine randomly which square the fighter is in at the moment the spell goes off. So, if the sorcerer targets the fireball such that only one square of the croc is in the area of effect, then there's a 1/9 chance that the fighter has to make a Reflex save as well. (This also implies an adjustment of the 50/50 rule when the grapplers are very different in size ...)

I like this idea as a way to determine if the Sorcerer is affected or not. I think I'll use this rule the next time it comes up. It makes sense and seems to be a fair way to determine whether someone gets hit or not.

Thanks.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What does this text mean?

[The creature with Improved Grab] can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

This arguably seems like another special ability allowed by Improved Grab (as opposed to something any grappler can do with a successful grapple check).

That's pretty nasty. Since no grapple check is needed to move the victim, the croc can drag him under the water and death-roll him in the same round.

BTW, someone suggested using max Power Attack to deal max damage to the "very low AC" croc. That's a bad idea. Even while grappling, a giant croc has AC 15 ... giving up 4 points of BAB for 8 points of damage is (usually) a terrible trade-off there. Assuming a Strength of 18, and +3 from other sources, max Power Attacking gives a flat 35 percent chance of missing outright.

Use Power Attack if the victim is going to be dead in the next round ... otherwise, don't risk it. (Unless, of course, the fun of Power Attack is all about the risk for you, in which case go for it!)

 

[Infiniti2000]

Right. So despite the fact that he isn't attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, his BAB grants him two iterative attacks with which he could attack with a weapon or unarmed strike if he so chose, and he can swap those for grapple options.

He can? Yeah, sure, as long as he doesn't use natural weapons. I don't think you realize that you're still trying to pull a bait n' switch. If he's attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike in order to use the iterative BAB rules, then he's attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike. If not, not. Also if not, look into the grapple rules on how to do it, which refers elsewhere and you wind up in the natural weapon section which explicitly prohibits it.

So, the conclusion is that you cannot get around the restriction in the natural weapon section by bait and switching unarmed strike to obtain iterative attacks.

 

[green slime]

Well, in round 1, the croc Improved Grabs, which drags the fighter into his space.

In round 2, he takes a standard action to move the grapple with a successful grapple check, going to the bottom of the river (and, thanks to Improved Grab, dealing bite damage from the successful grapple check).

In round 3, he attempts a pin. If he's successful, he deals bite damage (Improved Grab again) from the successful grapple check, and also makes it essentially impossible for a 4th level fighter to get away this round - the fighter needs one grapple check to break the pin, and a second grapple check to escape the grapple... but with a BAB of +4, he only gets one.

Basically, from round 3 on, the croc attempts to pin each round. If he wins, he a/ deals damage, b/ prevents the fighter from being able to either escape or hit back, and c/ keeps the fighter at the bottom of the river making Con checks...

-Hyp.

An excellent summary. Thanks for that Hypersmurf!

 

[Hypersmurf]

He can? Yeah, sure, as long as he doesn't use natural weapons.

The natural weapon has nothing to do with the iterative attacks.

The two iterative attacks come from BAB; the bite is being treated as a secondary natural attack, which can be used in addition to iterative attacks.

I'm not baiting and switching; I'm using the two attacks I get by virtue of a high BAB to use grappling options, per the Grappling rules.

I'm not making iterative attacks with a natural weapon (prohibited), I'm not attacking with more than one weapon in a grapple (prohibited); I'm simply combining iterative non-natural-weapon attacks from a high BAB with a secondary natural weapon (permitted).

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

The other issue has to do with Crocodile behavour and intelligence. D&D unfortunately doesn't give much information or advice about how to run animals. Even for an animal Crocs are pretty stupid. A Croc wouldn't really discern a boat from a creature or be able to tell them apart. A Croc also have trouble dealing with new situatuations that it has not been programmed for by heritage.


IMO the giant croc would have attacked the boat if it attacked at all, not the people in it. Simply because to the crocs limited perception: people + boats = one big creature swimming in the water. But it would be unlikely to attack at all, unless it had prior succes (and meals) from such an attack.


The more likely outcome would be that it swam closer and pushed and nibbled the boat a bit hoping that it was a carcas, then maybe tried to take a bite out of the boat. If hurt during that proces it would be likely to flee.


Even if it attacked it would definately flee if hurt badly, few animals fight to death and usually only when forced to.

While I agree with the last statement, I disagree with your take on crocodiles. They are a highly successful predator, and not some dull, dimwitted monster prone to taking bites at driftwood.