Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[monboesen]

They are a highly successful predator

They are highly succesful as long as they are dealing with environment and situations that millions of years of evolution has made them good at.


Throw them into something they are not used to; not so succesful at all.


The vast majority of real life crocodile attacks on humans happens to swimming, snorkling, wading humans. Only extremely rarely do crocodiles attack boats or people in boats.

 

[green slime]

They are highly succesful as long as they are dealing with environment and situations that millions of years of evolution has made them good at.


Throw them into something they are not used to; not so succesful at all.


The vast majority of real life crocodile attacks on humans happens to swimming, snorkling, wading humans. Only extremely rarely do crocodiles attack boats or people in boats.

They don't attack people in boats because there is no need? Or put otherwise: they do so when they need to.

Doesn't prevent an attack on the people in the boat from being a terrifying event to the people in the boat.

What is the point of claiming that the crocodile is not successful in unusual situations? How successful does the boat-attacking crocodile have to be, for you to consider the crocodile as a successful predator? The majority of humans living in modern society are not successful in unusual situations! While humans might inhabitant most areas of the globe, I'd be hard pressed to last three weeks without access to a grocery store.

 

[monboesen]

They don't attack people in boats because there is no need? Or put otherwise: they do so when they need to.

I may be explaining myself badly today, but no. My intended point was that crocodiles dont often attack boats because boats dont much resemble their usual prey (moves, looks, tastes, smells and reacts different). So even if they are hungry (=need to) they wouldn't usually attack a boat.

Doesn't prevent an attack on the people in the boat from being a terrifying event to the people in the boat.

Absolutely true

What is the point of claiming that the crocodile is not successful in unusual situations?

My point was that the crocodile wont really know how (or be "programmed") to do anything else except how to live as a predator in aquatic environments (swim, hide, notice and identify prey, attack and kill prey, mate, take care of youths). If faced with something outside of that, it will either a) attack, b) flee, c) threaten or d) do nothing.


Should a crocodile somehow, by luck or by chance, have gotten a meal out of attacking a boat they might do it again, I'm not actually to sure about how good crocodiles are at learning such new tricks. Most reptiles aren't very good at that.

 

[cwhs01]

Is this turning into an argument about the realism in being attacked by 20 foot, multiple thousand pound crocodiles? Well, it's not terribly realistic, but i guess i've seen worse offences in rpg's

 

[jodyjohnson]

Just a few more rules regarding aquatic creatures attacking into non-aquatic areas and the reverse.

Underwater Combat
Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom.

Ranged Attacks Underwater
Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a -2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Attacks from Land
Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

Which made it very difficult for our party in RHoD to attack creatures while in a boat. However the reverse problem is found in the Marsh terrain text.

The water in a deep bog provides cover for Medium or larger creatures. Smaller creatures gain improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves). Medium or larger creatures can crouch as a move action to gain this improved cover. Creatures with this improved cover take a -10 penalty on attacks against creatures that aren’t underwater.

Plus at the very least I'd grant characters in a boat at least cover (-4 to hit) while the normal reverse is non-stacking since the creature already gets improved cover for being in the water.

Final modifiers: Party vs. Croc have -8 to hit. Croc vs. party has -14 to hit. So if the croc really wants to hit it should have to enter the boat.

That's not even including my bias against using full grapple modifiers for creatures with Improved Grab when they have a strong disincentive to do so. (They take -20)

 

[monboesen]

Is this turning into an argument about the realism in being attacked by 20 foot, multiple thousand pound crocodiles?

I was trying to argue for the point that one of the reasons that the giant crocodile has a low CR for its melee capabilities is that it is pretty stupid and will behave predictably.

If you are swimming or walking in the water that predictability is a bad thing for you (because the croc will attack, drown and eat you)

If you are sailing in a boat the same predictability means that the croc will ignore almost every time.

 

[lukelightning]

The rest of the party was having a dicussion about what to do next at the time the attack happened so they weren't paying much attention to their surroundings, hence I didn't give them Spot checks.

I strongly disagree with this. I think characters should always get to make spot checks; spot represent the persons ability to be aware of surroundings despite whatever else is going on. If you think they are being lax, give them a -2 circumstance penalty. Remember that spot is an entirely reflexive ability; a player can't say "I'm spotting..."

 

[lukelightning]

So would you also not expect a Huge or Gargantuan Snake after walking down a long 10ft corridor?

I'd still apply the squeezing penalty, representing the fact that it has some trouble maneuvering. For snakes...well, they should get some 'tunnel fighting' style feat or special ability that enables them to be treated as one size smaller for the purposes of maneuvering in tight quarters.

 

[jodyjohnson]

The squeezing rules say you need to make a Escape Artist check to squeeze but the only DC listed is DC 30 for big as head but smaller than shoulders.

A snake could have a DC much lower. Say maybe DC 5 or 10 to squeeze for snakes or other long narrow creatures.

Plus maybe ad hoc attacks for specific creatures while squeezing (plus granting cover bonuses).

 

[rvalle]

So would you also not expect a Huge or Gargantuan Snake after walking down a long 10ft corridor? A T-Rex is a lot taller than a Crocodile. The only reason why the Crocodile is considered to be a "Huge" size is because of its length. It certainly isn't anywhere near as wide as it is long.

I understand your point about limited mobility being one of its weaknesses but it seems silly to me that something like an ordinary horse should have trouble fitting down a 5ft wide corridor. Yes, it can fit as per the RAW but it has to move at half speed to do so. That doesn't make sense IMO.

Olaf the Stout

I've wondered about this too. Is the 10x10 (or whatever) rule only in effect during combat? I.e. in normal circumstances a horse can move though a 5' hallway but once fighting starts it is hindered as it wants to flail around with its hooves.

Same with the snake... it can move though the hallway but when attacking it wants to coil up so it can strike.

rv