Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Olaf the Stout]

I strongly disagree with this. I think characters should always get to make spot checks; spot represent the persons ability to be aware of surroundings despite whatever else is going on. If you think they are being lax, give them a -2 circumstance penalty. Remember that spot is an entirely reflexive ability; a player can't say "I'm spotting..."

Yeah, in hindsight, that was a bad decision on my part.

I'll make sure I give them all one next time and just apply a negative circumstance modifier.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Except that you are reduced to half your speed while squeezing. Explain to me why a Huge snake should be slowed to half speed while travelling down a straight 5ft wide corridor? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Have you watched snakes move? There's a lot of sideways motion of their bodies required to produce forward progress.

I have no problem translating that into a movement penalty when the snake isn't capable of getting enough sideways goin' on.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Have you watched snakes move? There's a lot of sideways motion of their bodies required to produce forward progress.

I have no problem translating that into a movement penalty when the snake isn't capable of getting enough sideways goin' on.

More than 5ft though? And what about horses?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

More than 5ft though?

Well, we are talking about a freakin' yuge snaeke, mate.

And what about horses?

What about them? 5' wide isn't all that much clearance on each side of a horse. That it walks slower with walls mere inches from its withers on each side doesn't seem far-fetched, to me.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The natural weapon has nothing to do with the iterative attacks.

The two iterative attacks come from BAB; the bite is being treated as a secondary natural attack, which can be used in addition to iterative attacks.

I'm not baiting and switching; I'm using the two attacks I get by virtue of a high BAB to use grappling options, per the Grappling rules.

No, you're baiting an switching because the only means you have for obtaining the iterative attacks is by combining manufactured weapons with natural weapons. The natural weapon is the bite and the manufactured weapon is the unarmed strike. You cannot combine unarmed attacks (unless you rule that they themselves are weapons) with natural weapons. Thus, a croc cannot bite and then trip. A troll also cannot bite and then trip (unless he were wielding a manufactured tripping weapon).

So, I ask you to explain with what manufactured weapon you're using to obtain the iterative attacks. In your example you suggest unarmed strike (and I agree that that's permissible). You cannot then decide not to use an unarmed strike and instead use a non-manufactured weapon (actually not even a weapon). Note also that the croc would need to decide this up front before attacking so that the natural weapon would be treated as secondary (reducing damage throughout the grapple and being harder to hit initially).

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, I ask you to explain with what manufactured weapon you're using to obtain the iterative attacks. In your example you suggest unarmed strike (and I agree that that's permissible). You cannot then decide not to use an unarmed strike and instead use a non-manufactured weapon (actually not even a weapon).

So would you have a problem with the crocodile, in addition to the bite, making a single unarmed strike and a single non-weapon grapple option in place of the other iterative attack?

Would there be any difference between using the +6 for the unarmed strike or the +1?

-Hyp.

 

[Hussar]

So would you also not expect a Huge or Gargantuan Snake after walking down a long 10ft corridor? A T-Rex is a lot taller than a Crocodile. The only reason why the Crocodile is considered to be a "Huge" size is because of its length. It certainly isn't anywhere near as wide as it is long.

I understand your point about limited mobility being one of its weaknesses but it seems silly to me that something like an ordinary horse should have trouble fitting down a 5ft wide corridor. Yes, it can fit as per the RAW but it has to move at half speed to do so. That doesn't make sense IMO.

Olaf the Stout

The squeezing rules only apply during combat. The same as the rules for the number of characters that can occupy the same square. Outside of combat, you can stuff pretty much as many people as you want into a 5 foot square by RAW. The same way you could certainly put a horse down a 5 foot wide corridor. However, once combat started, then the squeezing rules kick in.

From the SRD here

Moving Around In Squares

In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space. The rules for movement are important for combat, but outside combat they can impose unnecessary hindrances on character activities.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So would you have a problem with the crocodile, in addition to the bite, making a single unarmed strike and a single non-weapon grapple option in place of the other iterative attack?

Yes. He could make the unarmed strike IF the original bite was treated as secondary. He could not take the grapple option as the second iterative attack if he also took a bite in the same full attack sequence.

Would there be any difference between using the +6 for the unarmed strike or the +1?

I'm not sure I understand this question, but I think it's irrelevant given my response above.

Can you respond to my question, though? I really don't see a fault in my logic, though I sense you do. I just don't think you've responded to it adequately. Perhaps I'm still not understanding something here.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes. He could make the unarmed strike IF the original bite was treated as secondary. He could not take the grapple option as the second iterative attack if he also took a bite in the same full attack sequence.

Wo. Hold on a moment. Why not?

Are you saying that my Warforged Monk cannot Bash (secondary NA), unarmed strike (+6 BAB), and then grapple (+1 BAB)?

 

[green slime]

I was trying to argue for the point that one of the reasons that the giant crocodile has a low CR for its melee capabilities is that it is pretty stupid and will behave predictably.

If you are swimming or walking in the water that predictability is a bad thing for you (because the croc will attack, drown and eat you)

If you are sailing in a boat the same predictability means that the croc will ignore almost every time.

Granted!

I apologise for being so obtuse as to your intent, and for being in such a miserly, nit-pickin' mood the other day.