Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Infiniti2000]

Are you saying that my Warforged Monk cannot Bash (secondary NA), unarmed strike (+6 BAB), and then grapple (+1 BAB)?

Isn't that the same question? And, yes. What is not clear about my position or what have I missed? Perhaps you'd care to answer the question I posed to Hyp?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Isn't that the same question? And, yes. What is not clear about my position or what have I missed? Perhaps you'd care to answer the question I posed to Hyp?

I'm saying that this is a completely borked position, without any support whatsoever in the rules.

You're definitely going to have to post some hard rules text to support this position.

EDIT:

Hrm. That may come off a lot more snarky than I intended, going back. Add liberal smilies as I smile and nod.

To continue, as a normal fighter, can I:

Attack with my longsword (BAB +6), and then Trip (BAB +1)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What is not clear about my position or what have I missed?

If I make one bite attack and one unarmed strike in the same round, aren't I mixing manufactured and natural weapons? Therefore the natural weapon becomes secondary, and I am entitled to your iterative BAB attacks in addition?

Since I'm mixing manufactured and natural weapons and using that manufactured weapon, isn't your 'bait and switch' objection satisfied? And once that's established, why is there a bar to using the other iterative attack I'm entitled to as a grapple option?

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The squeezing rules only apply during combat. The same as the rules for the number of characters that can occupy the same square. Outside of combat, you can stuff pretty much as many people as you want into a 5 foot square by RAW. The same way you could certainly put a horse down a 5 foot wide corridor. However, once combat started, then the squeezing rules kick in.

From the SRD here

Thanks for that Hussar. I'll make sure to only apply the squeezing rules during combat.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm saying that this is a completely borked position, without any support whatsoever in the rules.

...

Hrm. That may come off a lot more snarky than I intended, going back. Add liberal smilies as I smile and nod.

Not a problem. I've argued with you enough to appreciate your sense of humor, even if only via posting.

Attack with my longsword (BAB +6), and then Trip (BAB +1)?

Yes. But that's a completely different case and you still have yet to even respond. I've already quoted the rules, or someone else did.

 

[Nail]

In my defence, it was a bought adventure that I was running so I envoke my right to blame it all on the author!

Done!

And that also raises the question, how many Spot checks should the PC's have got to see the croc approaching? My initial though was just the 1 but now I am thinking that they should get 1 check every round until the croc attacks or goes out of sight.

It's a good question, and one that I think isn't clear in the rules. I use the "by halves" approach:

#1) Check when a 20 + highest Spot check has a chance to succeed.

#2) Close to half the distance, then check again.

#3) Close to half again, check, repeat, etc.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I make one bite attack and one unarmed strike in the same round, aren't I mixing manufactured and natural weapons? Therefore the natural weapon becomes secondary, and I am entitled to your iterative BAB attacks in addition?

"Yes' and "yes if you are combining natural and manufactured weapons." There are no other rules to obtain iterative attacks while making a full attack with natural weapons. You can use:

1. Only natural weapons (no iterative).
2. Any non-natural weapons (iterative, usually manufactured but could be non-manufactured).
3. Only natural weapons and manufactured weapons (iterative). The support for this one is the rule that was already quoted I believe.

What you want is option 4, which doesn't exist. I'm asking you to provide the rules support for it.

4. Natural weapons and any non-natural weapon (iterative, usually manufactured but could be non-manufactured).

Since I'm mixing manufactured and natural weapons and using that manufactured weapon, isn't your 'bait and switch' objection satisfied? And once that's established, why is there a bar to using the other iterative attack I'm entitled to as a grapple option?

You cannot NOT use a manufactured weapon for those iterative attacks if you choose to use the rule that allows you to combine manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

The following example is how I see it, though I am willing to be proven wrong. Say a glabrezu attacks the PC on round one and improved grabs him (assume he chose not to use his natural weapons as secondary attacks). They are still grappling on round 2. In round 2, the glabrezu cannot choose to (say) pincer the PC with his other claw (-4 penalty for grappling, -2 for secondary) and also conduct 3 grapple attempts. He could, however, either attack with one natural weapon (not a good choice most likely) or grapple 3 times.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You cannot NOT use a manufactured weapon for those iterative attacks if you choose to use the rule that allows you to combine manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

But I'm allowed to substitute an iterative attack for a grappling option, and by making a single unarmed strike, I'm satisfying the condition of mixing natural and manufactured weapons.

The unarmed strike is considered my primary weapon, and I have two iterative attacks at +6/+1 that I can make with it... and per the grappling rules, those iterative attacks can be swapped for grapple options.

However, I'm still not convinced the single unarmed strike is necessary. An unarmed strike, after all, isn't actually a manufactured weapon... but it behaves like one, in that it uses iterative BAB. Grapple is a weapon (it's a valid choice for Weapon Focus, after all) and it uses iterative BAB; isn't it just as much a manufactured weapon as an unarmed strike? If I combine a Bite and a Grapple, am I not combining natural and manufactured weapons to exactly the same extent I am with a Bite and an Unarmed Strike?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, I certainly don't want to get into what's what type of weapon. If you say that Grapple is a manufactured weapon, then okay that works for me. I say it's not a weapon and the fact that weapon focus applies is an explicit exception, nothing more. As another example, a ray spell is not a weapon you can use iterative attacks with, though it's as much a weapon as Grapple (per the Complete Arcane).

But I'm allowed to substitute an iterative attack for a grappling option, and by making a single unarmed strike, I'm satisfying the condition of mixing natural and manufactured weapons.

The unarmed strike is considered my primary weapon, and I have two iterative attacks at +6/+1 that I can make with it... and per the grappling rules, those iterative attacks can be swapped for grapple options.

Per the grappling rules and per the normal full attack rules, but not the combining natural/manufactured weapons rules. It is in fact explicitly forbidden. Here's the sentence again: "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." Thus, when the glabrezu is using natural weapons, he gains no additional attacks from high BAB. Not just no additional natural weapons attacks, no attacks period. The only exception is the combination with manufactured weapons.

What rule allows you to combine natural weapons with non-manufactured weapons?

 

[frankthedm]

I think Hype is saying the a creature in a grapple can uses BAB based iterative attacks and then follow up with it’s natural attack at -5 {plus the in grapple modifiers of -4]. An example ; the minotaur’s Full attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/x3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2) in a grapple it would be Full attack: Grapple option +14 / +9 (Damage unarmed strike if applicable) and gore +0 melee (1d8+2).

Well this thread got me wanting to make some advanced Crocs. I guess I'll start of with a slightly larger specimine. Just large enough to have that BAB based iterative attacks at the issue here.

Old Fat Fangs [sblock=Old Fat Fangs CR5 Giant Crocodile] GIANT CROCODILE Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (90 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+23
Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d8+12) or tail slap +13 melee (1d12+12)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d8+12) or tail slap +13 melee (1d12+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +4*, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +16
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Improved natural attack (bite)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Solitary or colony (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 5
Advancement: 11–14 HD (Huge)

This meaty individual has eaten well over it’s many years. It sports an overdeveloped set of fangs that can cut an ogre in twain.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a crocodile must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the crocodile establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom.

Hold Breath (Ex): A crocodile can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Skills: A crocodile has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. *A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks[/sblock]