Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Darklone]

OMG, 4E needs pretty urgently some change about the natural weapons/unarmed strikes.

 

[frankthedm]

What does this text mean?
This arguably seems like another special ability allowed by Improved Grab (as opposed to something any grappler can do with a successful grapple check).

That's pretty nasty. Since no grapple check is needed to move the victim, the croc can drag him under the water and death-roll him in the same round.

You are right, Improved grabbers can use that rule* to take their food {victim] to go. It allows the hunter to avoid the reprisal of the victim's pack {party] as it is supposed to do.

I'd call the "death roll" the subsequent round when the croc "pins" the victim. triggering the improved grab's bonus damage.

* This is part of why I read the free action to start a grapple can not activate during an AoO or ready. Grapple, improved grapple & improved grab all need an additional free action that AoOs and readies do not provide.

 

[Seeten]

This lengthy discussion, and its ramifications is why my Paladin has "Close Quarters Fighting."

When stuff thinks its gonna improved grab me, I beat the living hell out of it. =)

 

[frankthedm]

This lengthy discussion, and its ramifications is why my Paladin has "Close Quarters Fighting."

When stuff thinks its gonna improved grab me, I beat the living hell out of it. =)

And folks wonder why the 3E concept art went nuts with the armor spikes? ​

 

[Nail]

IWell this thread got me wanting to make some advanced Crocs. I guess I'll start of with a slightly larger specimine. Just large enough to have that BAB based iterative attacks at the issue here.

Old Fat Fangs

Great goggly-moggly!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not just no additional natural weapons attacks, no attacks period. The only exception is the combination with manufactured weapons.

Ah, wait. What you've just posted says that I cannot:

Bite (as a secondary natural weapon), Sword (+6 BAB), and Sword (+1 BAB)?

I don't think that's what you mean, though, so I'll give you time to edit.

In round 2, the glabrezu cannot choose to (say) pincer the PC with his other claw (-4 penalty for grappling, -2 for secondary) and also conduct 3 grapple attempts.

Of course not - but what prevents that is the rule that you aren't allowed to use more than one weapon in a grapple (grapple and claw, grapple and knife, etc.), not the rules on mixing manufactured and natural weapons.

 

[SlagMortar]

Ah, wait. What you've just posted says that I cannot:

Bite (as a secondary natural weapon), Sword (+6 BAB), and Sword (+1 BAB)?

I believe this would fall under Infiniti's rule #3, so Infiniti is saying this sequence is allowed.

 

[Seeten]

And folks wonder why the 3E concept art went nuts with the armor spikes? ​

Even my Paladin has Armor Spikes. And Shield Spikes. Big nasty ones. Grapple me and DIE.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I believe this would fall under Infiniti's rule #3, so Infiniti is saying this sequence is allowed.

Yeah, but I don't think he's got the rules support to allow that but disallow, say, a Trip attempt.

Explicitly:

Natural Weapons: ... Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. ...

Manufactured Weapons: ... Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

Going by his reading, I'd be prohibited from going Bite, Sword, Sword, because "Not just no additional natural weapons attacks, no attacks period."

There's nothing that specifically allows me to get around that limitation when I'm using a manufactured weapon. Is that second sword attack an "additional attack from a high base attack bonus"? Am I 'using [a] natural weapon"?

Then why is that allowed, but not Bite, Sword, Trip?

 

[IanB]

Is this turning into an argument about the realism in being attacked by 20 foot, multiple thousand pound crocodiles? Well, it's not terribly realistic, but i guess i've seen worse offences in rpg's

It is plenty realistic. Male saltwater crocodiles do reach lengths of over 20 feet and weights above 3000 lbs, although more typically they're only about 15 feet on average. You don't have to chalk giant crocodiles up to designer imagination, they essentially exist in the real world.