Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[SlagMortar]

Then why is that allowed, but not Bite, Sword, Trip?

I believe he is saying that Trip is not a manufactured weapon. A reading of the Manufactured Weapons section you quoted could be that if you attack with a natural weapon as a secondary weapon and you make iterative attacks then all your iterative attacks must come from a "manufactured weapon." Infiniti does not include grapple or trip in that category.

I'm going to drop back to lurker status so that I don't misrepresent his position. My opinion on the matter is to do whatever seems balanced because D&D just painted itself into a corner by defining so many weapons (natural weapon, manufactured weapon, unarmed strike which is a natural and a manufactured weapon) and attack modes (iterative attacks, natural weapon attacks, grapples). It is about impossible to have a rule set that governs the combinations in a simple and efficient manner, unless the rule is you can't combine any of them, which would not be as fun and is definitely not the path chosen.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think Hype is saying the a creature in a grapple can uses BAB based iterative attacks and then follow up with it’s natural attack at -5 {plus the in grapple modifiers of -4].

I think so, too, but there's no rules justifying that. The only rules allow natural weapons + manufactured weapons and unless you say the Grapple is a manufactured weapon, you cannot make a grapple attack while using natural weapons.

Ah, wait. What you've just posted says that I cannot:

Bite (as a secondary natural weapon), Sword (+6 BAB), and Sword (+1 BAB)?

That is certainly not what I posted. What about "The only exception..." part of my post is confusing?

Going by his reading, I'd be prohibited from going Bite, Sword, Sword, because "Not just no additional natural weapons attacks, no attacks period."

You previously quoted me fully, now do so again and you answer your own question. :\

 

[Infiniti2000]

I believe he is saying that Trip is not a manufactured weapon. A reading of the Manufactured Weapons section you quoted could be that if you attack with a natural weapon as a secondary weapon and you make iterative attacks then all your iterative attacks must come from a "manufactured weapon." Infiniti does not include grapple or trip in that category.

That's exactly correct.

I'm going to drop back to lurker status so that I don't misrepresent his position. My opinion on the matter is to do whatever seems balanced because D&D just painted itself into a corner by defining so many weapons (natural weapon, manufactured weapon, unarmed strike which is a natural and a manufactured weapon) and attack modes (iterative attacks, natural weapon attacks, grapples). It is about impossible to have a rule set that governs the combinations in a simple and efficient manner, unless the rule is you can't combine any of them, which would not be as fun and is definitely not the path chosen.

Well said.

I'm not claiming my interpretation is better or anything, it's just what I think the RAW actually says. There have been heated arguments in the past on whether unarmed strike, grapple, and even unarmed attack were weapons. Frankly, I don't desire to get into that, so I'm just saying that a non-weapon attack (IMO e.g. trip or grapple) cannot be used in conjunction with natural weapons (with an exception on improved grab's initial hold).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm asking you where you got your information on manufactured weapons getting multiple attacks from high BAB when using a natural weapon. Where is the back-up for your "exception"? I don't see one, at all.

Where's the override?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually you were being nice in this fight, what the croc could have done is this:

Surprise: Bite (+grapple)
1st round: Grapple check to pull opponent half speed (under the water)
2nd Round: Pin and suffocate or grapple to crush with teeth.

That way most of the party couldn't have done anything to the creature.

Just agreeing here that this is the way I'd have seen it going too - which would probably have been a dead fighter.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moderator/

All grappling discussion has been split into a new discussion here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3291777

Please use that thread for grappling/natural attacks discussion rather than this one.

Thanks.

 

[nittanytbone]

The squeezing rules only apply during combat. The same as the rules for the number of characters that can occupy the same square. Outside of combat, you can stuff pretty much as many people as you want into a 5 foot square by RAW. The same way you could certainly put a horse down a 5 foot wide corridor. However, once combat started, then the squeezing rules kick in.

From the SRD here

Holy cow, a druid should shift into a nice large or huge combat form and stay in it ALL DAY LONG. Because there's no penalty, assuming you can find a 4x4 set of squares for combat-time.

And everyone should have a pet dire wolf. They are dungeon portable, after all, under this reading of RAW.

 

[frankthedm]

Holy cow, a druid should shift into a nice large or huge combat form and stay in it ALL DAY LONG. Because there's no penalty, assuming you can find a 4x4 set of squares for combat-time.

3x3 is huge. A Druid gets Wild shape (Huge) at 15th level.

Once the druid hits 8th, a lot of druid builds fully intend on staying in wildshape for the entire day. The only time they switch back is when the DM is on the ball and does not let them speak with the other players to convey important information.

And everyone should have a pet dire wolf. They are dungeon portable, after all, under this reading of RAW.

They fit in more places than an ogre would. And those big bruisers seen pretty dungeon portable. I personally love the imagery of a dire wolf mount. All it takes is a few years of down time to get them to go from fluffy puppy to lean mean stable-boy eating machines.

Handle animal
Rear a Wild Animal [DC15 + HD of animal] To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once.

A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it’s being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later.

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

 

[Darklone]

3x3 is huge. A Druid gets Wild shape (Huge) at 15th level.

Once the druid hits 8th, a lot of druid builds fully intend on staying in wildshape for the entire day.

Don't forget that many druids will already be Huge at level 9 during combats... Animal Growth rocks.

 

[IcyCool]

Don't forget that many druids will already be Huge at level 9 during combats... Animal Growth rocks.

I was under the impression that the current errata makes Druids keep their type when wildshaped, and so are unable to benefit from Animal Growth.