Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Christian]

Under the reading of "The writers are describing unusual situations", the rules all work as written without the need to make new things up. Under the reading of "Certain actions extend a pin", you need to add a new sentence that says "Certain actions extend a pin"...

So, you think that whole section is mostly a set of special rules for grappling Chokers.

OK, whatever. I prefer to think that the authors intended something useful with that section, and just didn't express themselves perfectly.

 

[Darklone]

One more point: Yes, IMHO most aquatic animals are too strong in the MM. Giant octopus anyone? Sharks?

It's really bad with the croc and the octopus that have land speeds.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I'm a human Ftr6 who's grappling, can I Pin and Damage even though I'm not using a weapon to do it? If so, where are the iterative attacks coming from?

From iterative base attack bonus, of course!

 

[gavagai]

Olaf, this scene is kind of amusing since, IIRC, the archer PC was your problem player some time ago since he was near-invincible. I hope he learned humility on this one ...

 

[monboesen]

I have two types of issues with the scene. One is the rules based one, the other a less quantifiable one.


The first has been mulled over already and has to do with spot and grapple checks. It also has to do with Combat Brute types being very dangereous for their CR if you allow them to melee you. That goes for Crocs as well as giants (even a measly CR 2 Ogre is a handful for level 2 characters to melee) and the likes. The CR takes into account that you primarily will deal with them another way (will save, ranged attacks etc.). You players didn't get that option = increase CR.





The other issue has to do with Crocodile behavour and intelligence. D&D unfortunately doesn't give much information or advice about how to run animals. Even for an animal Crocs are pretty stupid. A Croc wouldn't really discern a boat from a creature or be able to tell them apart. A Croc also have trouble dealing with new situatuations that it has not been programmed for by heritage.


IMO the giant croc would have attacked the boat if it attacked at all, not the people in it. Simply because to the crocs limited perception: people + boats = one big creature swimming in the water. But it would be unlikely to attack at all, unless it had prior succes (and meals) from such an attack.


The more likely outcome would be that it swam closer and pushed and nibbled the boat a bit hoping that it was a carcas, then maybe tried to take a bite out of the boat. If hurt during that proces it would be likely to flee.


Even if it attacked it would definately flee if hurt badly, few animals fight to death and usually only when forced to.

 

[nittanytbone]

I really dislike the 3.5 size rules where all creatures are square in shape. As per RAW a huge croc should be as wide as it is long but that doesn't make sense to me. Hence I allowed it to swim in the river that was only 10-15 ft. wide.

That would be akin to walking down a 10' wide dungeon corridor and coming across a Tyrannosaurus Rex, Elephant, or Remorhaz. As a player, I'd expect to be running into ogre-sized things, not huge things. In this environment, I'd expect to run across regular crocodiles -- medium creatures that could fit in the river -- and not giant ones that could straddle the width of the stream without trying.

Being really big in 3.5 gives lots of advantages (awesome grapple checks, reach, strength bonuses, etc.). One of the biggest disadvantages is limited mobility.

I think that if the monster got around its limited mobility -- one of its significant weaknesses -- due to a house rule it should probably be considered to be a CR or two higher.

 

[IcyCool]

So, you think that whole section is mostly a set of special rules for grappling Chokers.

More likely, they were there to deal with Haste. I could be wrong, but have the grapple rules changed from 3.0 to 3.5? Is this an artifact of 3.0 Haste?

 

[Infiniti2000]

A Croc wouldn't really discern a boat from a creature or be able to tell them apart.

They definitely can.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From iterative base attack bonus, of course!

Right. So despite the fact that he isn't attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, his BAB grants him two iterative attacks with which he could attack with a weapon or unarmed strike if he so chose, and he can swap those for grapple options.

Similarly, the crocodile isn't attacking with a weapon or unarmed strike, his BAB grants him two iterative attacks with which he could attack with a weapon or unarmed strike if he so chose, and he can swap those for grapple options, while still using his bite as a secondary natural weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[werk]

The other issue has to do with Crocodile behavour and intelligence. D&D unfortunately doesn't give much information or advice about how to run animals. Even for an animal Crocs are pretty stupid. A Croc wouldn't really discern a boat from a creature or be able to tell them apart. A Croc also have trouble dealing with new situatuations that it has not been programmed for by heritage.

IMO the giant croc would have attacked the boat if it attacked at all, not the people in it. Simply because to the crocs limited perception: people + boats = one big creature swimming in the water. But it would be unlikely to attack at all, unless it had prior succes (and meals) from such an attack.

As much as I dislike a 'real world' approach to fantasy roleplaying, I'll disagree with you here. Crocs have been know to pluck people off of riverbanks and piers without stupidly attacking everything else on the riverbank or the piers themselves. They know the difference between living matter and non-living matter due to electro receptors on their head and snout, so in the water, they would have little need to prod a boat to see if it is edible or not. Lack of intelligence does not confound millions of years of successful evolution.

Regardless, it is a giant D&D monstrous animal, and the DM had it attack the party. Since it has reach, it can pluck a character from anywhere it likes, especially if it has surprise. I would have attacked the boat myself, just for the "OMG, we're treading water in a river with a giant croc!" factor, but maybe they needed the boat for plot related reasons.