Giant Crocodile - Strong CR4?

[Olaf the Stout]

Under Improved Grab:

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.



The +4 won't apply, because the fighter is no longer pinned in round 3.

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack).

If you pin someone in round 2, they're pinned until just before your turn in round 3.

So if the crocodile wants to benefit from the +4, he needs to move the grapple in the same round that he pins the fighter... and since moving the grapple requires a standard action (not just an attack), it's difficult to manage without being a Choker...

-Hyp.

Thanks Hyp. I don't know my way around the MM anywhere near as well as I would like. Is the 1) bite/grapple, 2) dive, and 3) pin manouver suggested by Christian possible by the RAW then?

What are the advantages of pinning over just biting for the croc?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hypersmurf]

What are the advantages of pinning over just biting for the croc?

Well, in round 1, the croc Improved Grabs, which drags the fighter into his space.

In round 2, he takes a standard action to move the grapple with a successful grapple check, going to the bottom of the river (and, thanks to Improved Grab, dealing bite damage from the successful grapple check).

In round 3, he attempts a pin. If he's successful, he deals bite damage (Improved Grab again) from the successful grapple check, and also makes it essentially impossible for a 4th level fighter to get away this round - the fighter needs one grapple check to break the pin, and a second grapple check to escape the grapple... but with a BAB of +4, he only gets one.

Basically, from round 3 on, the croc attempts to pin each round. If he wins, he a/ deals damage, b/ prevents the fighter from being able to either escape or hit back, and c/ keeps the fighter at the bottom of the river making Con checks...

-Hyp.

 

[Christian]

The +4 won't apply, because the fighter is no longer pinned in round 3.

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack).

If you pin someone in round 2, they're pinned until just before your turn in round 3.

So if the crocodile wants to benefit from the +4, he needs to move the grapple in the same round that he pins the fighter... and since moving the grapple requires a standard action (not just an attack), it's difficult to manage without being a Choker...

So, what, is that rule there specifically for Chokers?

OK, letter of the rules and all that, but I've always played that once an opponent is pinned, you can do any of the things listed as allowed under the 'If You're Pinning An Opponent' header while still maintaining the pin. (Damage the opponent, move the grapple, or disarm.) Otherwise, the last paragraph of that section doesn't really make sense--most of those actions are standard or full-round actions, so if a pin automatically ended at the beginning of your turn, then you wouldn't need a rule to say that you couldn't do them while pinning an opponent ... Your interpretation seems excessively literal.

Oh, yeah. 'excessively literal' ™ (copyright Hypersmurf 2002 all rights reserved). Didn't mean to leave off the disclaimer there.

 

[Stalker0]

Well, in round 1, the croc Improved Grabs, which drags the fighter into his space.

In round 2, he takes a standard action to move the grapple with a successful grapple check, going to the bottom of the river (and, thanks to Improved Grab, dealing bite damage from the successful grapple check).

In round 3, he attempts a pin. If he's successful, he deals bite damage (Improved Grab again) from the successful grapple check

Improved Grab deals damage on a pin?

 

[Christian]

Improved Grab deals damage on a pin?

The description of Improved Grab states that 'each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals damage'. IMO, that's just a reference to the general rule that a grappling character can deal damage with a grapple check, and is intended to clarify that the damage a creature with this ability does is the full damage from its natural attack that it grapples with. But I can understand Hyp's interpretation that this is an additional feature of the Improved Grab ability; that, eg., a monster that has the ability that attempts to disarm or pin a grappled creature does damage with the maneuver, even though it ordinarily wouldn't do damage. (A human grappler disarms you by grabbing away the weapon; a grappling croc really dis-arms you ...)

YMMV

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Well, in round 1, the croc Improved Grabs, which drags the fighter into his space.

In round 2, he takes a standard action to move the grapple with a successful grapple check, going to the bottom of the river (and, thanks to Improved Grab, dealing bite damage from the successful grapple check).

In round 3, he attempts a pin. If he's successful, he deals bite damage (Improved Grab again) from the successful grapple check, and also makes it essentially impossible for a 4th level fighter to get away this round - the fighter needs one grapple check to break the pin, and a second grapple check to escape the grapple... but with a BAB of +4, he only gets one.

Basically, from round 3 on, the croc attempts to pin each round. If he wins, he a/ deals damage, b/ prevents the fighter from being able to either escape or hit back, and c/ keeps the fighter at the bottom of the river making Con checks...

-Hyp.

Going by that interpretation of Improved Grab it doesn't look like I ripped the fighter off by rolling an attack as well as a grapple since he failed the grapple checks.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation of Improved Grab.

What does everyone think about the Sorcerer targeting his fireball so that it hit the croc but not the Fighter? Should he have been able to do it or not?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your interpretation seems excessively literal.

I'm not certain what other interpretation of "for one round" there is...?

It's made explicit in the Stunning Fist feat: "A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action)."

If you cast Color Spray at someone and "The creature is stunned for 1 round", they are no longer stunned by the time you next get an action.

What else would "You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round" mean? If you want them immobile for more than one round, you'll need to win another attempt to Pin; at the end of that one round, you are no longer holding your opponent immobile...

I honestly don't think this is interpreting the wording 'excessively literally'; I think it's simply what's written there. To read "You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round" as "You can hold your opponent immobile until he succeeds at breaking the pin" is not reading it less literally; it's chucking away the rule and replacing it with something different...?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Going by that interpretation of Improved Grab it doesn't look like I ripped the fighter off by rolling an attack as well as a grapple since he failed the grapple checks.

Well, in the first round, the order should be attack roll, bite damage, grapple check. The bite damage is not applied a second time if the grapple check is successful, because this is a grapple check to establish a hold, and "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack."

If the crocodile had a +6 BAB (assuming a normal round, not a surprise round), he could attempt to pin in the same round, but a successful check would not yield extra bite damage then either, because it is each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds that deals the bite damage... not the establishing round.

What does everyone think about the Sorcerer targeting his fireball so that it hit the croc but not the Fighter? Should he have been able to do it or not?

A similar question came up the other day, with a Lightning Bolt.

I'd say no; the fighter and the crocodile are sharing the same space, so it's not possible to strike a square that contains the crocodile but does not contain the fighter... even though the crocodile takes up more squares than the fighter when they aren't grappling.

-Hyp.

 

[Christian]

What does everyone think about the Sorcerer targeting his fireball so that it hit the croc but not the Fighter? Should he have been able to do it or not?

The only rules that at all imply he couldn't are the mounted combat rules and the rules about targeting a grappled character with a missile weapon. The rule about large mounts (a fighter riding a giant crocodile would be considered to occupy all nine squares) don't really seem relevant. But the rule about missile fire striking a grappler randomly imply that there's a lot of moving about within the grappling area--it's hard to say that there's one square that the fighter is in.

I'd say you're free to rule as you wish on this--I don't see any clear indications as to how this would work. The way I would do it is, determine randomly which square the fighter is in at the moment the spell goes off. So, if the sorcerer targets the fireball such that only one square of the croc is in the area of effect, then there's a 1/9 chance that the fighter has to make a Reflex save as well. (This also implies an adjustment of the 50/50 rule when the grapplers are very different in size ...)

 

[javcs]

Going by that interpretation of Improved Grab it doesn't look like I ripped the fighter off by rolling an attack as well as a grapple since he failed the grapple checks.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation of Improved Grab.

What does everyone think about the Sorcerer targeting his fireball so that it hit the croc but not the Fighter? Should he have been able to do it or not?

Olaf the Stout

Technically? No.
I seem to recall that there was a thread with a monk grappling a hydra that got hit by a lightning bolt and not being affected in the OP, but was later determined to not be RAW, a while back.