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Gimp Stat? How Low is Too Low?

I entered into an online game with a girl who sought out a DM, there were problems from the start, namely with character creation. She didn't want an array or to roll or even a point buy the way we know it. She wanted a one for one point buy that started from 1 and basically rendered all of her stats above 15 at level one.

When I said that she needed to have some regulation on them, she complained that anything below that was a gimp stat. I've been DMing almost a year now and I was wondering is there some sentiment that is shared in that or is anything in positive modifiers considered a non-gimp.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
I entered into an online game with a girl who sought out a DM, there were problems from the start, namely with character creation. She didn't want an array or to roll or even a point buy the way we know it. She wanted a one for one point buy that started from 1 and basically rendered all of her stats above 15 at level one.

When I said that she needed to have some regulation on them, she complained that anything below that was a gimp stat. I've been DMing almost a year now and I was wondering is there some sentiment that is shared in that or is anything in positive modifiers considered a non-gimp.

I've ran into that before in one group that, other than there desire that their characters be good at everything, was a pretty good one.

There are some players that feel that since their characters are heroes, that they ought to be good at everything and are uncomfortable even having average scores in one attribute. I think D&D can handle it, in the since that D&D has never been that far from 'costumed superheroes with swords', but the question is whether the DM can keep the play somewhat balanced and challenging with everyone in the party getting essentially a +1 or +2 LA for free. My experience with overall high stat modifiers is that it makes the game very swingy, and the DM ends up giving all the NPC's 18's and other high stats as well, so that essentially 18 becomes the new 12 and if you have less than 18 you are below average in the stat. In fact, the tendancy of the DM to give NPC's high attributes may have initially led this group to percieving anything below 15 as a gimp stat. When every NPC blacksmith in town has an 18 Str, every NPC Wizard has an 18 Int, and even simple town guards have better than elite arrays, then yes anything under 15 probably is a 'gimp stat'.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's the sort of thing that doesn't necessarily single anything other than a slight degree of immaturity, but that - given that you are adults playing a game like D&D - that should be no barrier to having a good time and if the DM has good skills in storytelling, tactics, NPC personification, map making, description, and so forth then this is a minor matter of personal taste only. If the DM is lacking in skills otherwise, then this might be considered an immature bribe to the players to play for her - 'look at the reward I'm giving you'.
 

I started with a stat array that went from 10 to 17 and I was happy. I think that it just makes it extra work if we have to work with so many high stats. But yeah I guess I see what you're saying about all of the ways that people drive the standard stat up. My NPCs rarely ever have to interact with the characters besides talking (I mean unless they are NPC enemies).
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I've been DMing almost a year now and I was wondering is there some sentiment that is shared in that or is anything in positive modifiers considered a non-gimp.
Yes.

Some people run campaigns with superhero PCs that don't have any average or below stats. Most people don't. This is a perfectly valid style that I've played and enjoyed, but I prefer more rounded characters. If you're not going to do that, just say so and let the player decide how to react.

Personally, I try to have at least one negative modifier on all my characters (though the ability system I use could easily avoid that). Weaknesses are fun to play and to design around.
 

I played a game with a stat build of 5d6 for rolls and keep all the numbers. It was way broken and people were reaching into the fifties with AC at times (after items and other things). It can be fun but I kind of like a middle ground, I like having characters that start out between 18 and 10 and who are more specialized.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
I have totally played a character with a top o' 13. And liked it. :)

Ah, 3d6 in order. Much maligned. . . not to mention, misunderstood.
 

Hawken

First Post
If you haven't done so already, sit down and explain your game to the player and how stat generation and such goes in your games.

She has a valid point, and one that doesn't signify immaturity at all. If she's played in the type of games where everyone has high average stats, that could explain where she is coming from. Same if generation is like 5d6 or 6d6 per stat, reroll 1s, keep the 3 best. I''ve also played in games where DMs give you 80pt buy and you build your stats up from 1--which is close to all 15s at a 1:1 cost.

Explain to her that PCs aren't superheroes in your games, that 18s are truly exceptional and rare and aren't as simple as just a 16 and two +1 bonuses at 4th and 8th to achieve. And, maybe she's been playing in games where stats are on kind of an epic scale.

To answer the topic question, I'd say anything under an 8 is too low. Its interesting to play characters with flaws, but below an 8, a character is either a cripple or a retard and has no business out adventuring because they're in for a short career destined to end at a discharged trap/spell, hacked to pieces, or in some monster's stomach. Below average stats aren't 'interesting', they are liabilities and weaknesses that sooner or later will be fatally exploited.

Of course, it also depends on the style of play you do as well. If you're playing a game with little investment of their characters from the players, stat generation shouldn't matter much. But if you're dealing with players that get emotionally invested in their characters and they're expecting to play them for a considerable amount of time, then sit down and discuss with them what kind of character they want to play.

If everyone has at least average scores, then you could come up with a method to reflect that as well. Maybe something like this:

You could pair up stats (Str/Con), (Dex/Int), (Wis/Cha). Have 3 categories; focused stats that the character trained in extensively, practiced stats that the character developed somewhat, and average stats. Allow them to assign a total +5 modifier to two focused stats (+3/+2 or +4/+1), a total +3 modifier (+2/+1 or +3/+0) to practiced stats, and a total +1 modifier (+1/+0) to two average stats, with the actual scores being the even number values for the chosen modifiers, so no stat is less than 10, and none higher than 18. How to handle racial adjustments though? If a stat has a racial bonus it can be any stat (focused, practiced, or average). If a stat has a racial penalty, the penalized stat must be in the focused or practiced category, otherwise an average stat penalized results in a character that is just too weak, slow, puny, stupid, ignorant or disliked to be an adventurer.

Of course, this just leaves you basically with four arrays to choose from:
18, 16, 12, 12, 10, 10
18, 14, 12, 12, 12, 10
16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10
16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10

But its all in the presentation. Arrays aren't appealing because the values are fixed in front of your eyes for all of the stats. You get to assign them as you want, but you have no influence over what numbers you have to choose from. But if you offer to let them choose as I suggest above, the results are the same as the array, but the player gets the illusion of being able to choose their individual scores--and without being 'penalized' as with the point buy method where you have no choice in getting below average or nearly all average stats for 1 high score and maybe 1 more above average. Plus they don't get to whine/gripe/bitch about bad rolls either.
 

Just to clarify, when I said 5d6. There was no drops and it was reroll ones.

But I parted ways with her over that, that night. It was mostly because she was a lone PC, the game was one on one and she was given an array that was somewhere along the lines of 18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 10. That's a pretty crazy array right there, and she could have gone gestalt too. She got so mad and acted as if I was giving her some gimped out retarded character and I didn't think that even if we had come to agree then that it would have been long before more trouble started.

In my current main game the characters are all pretty exceptional and in a pathfinder game I am playing I'm level 1 with 20 INT. I don't have an issue with high stats, but I just don't like the idea of the character being all 18s at level 1.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Yeah...I started seeing players like that after 3d6 or 4d6 was no longer "in fashion." IOW, right about a few months after the original Unearthed Arcana.

Don't get me wrong- arrays, point buys and other stat gen methods are cool and can be handled with no problem by the right people. But some get this entitlement bug, so if they have some kind of gimp stat or they have to play "old school", they get indignant.
 

Well the thing is that from my understand its not even as hard as it used to be to bring a Gimp stat up to above 10 or even drive it into good territory (depending on the stat, gloves of dexterity are pretty cheap).
 

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