Ginger-ism

[Zombie_Babies]

In my personal experience, it has seemed more that jokes are instead a sign of direct or latent discrimination. Your'e unlikely to poke fun of a group unless you've already figured out that group is "not us".

Yeah ... and what about when the jokes are in-group? What about when they're self-deprecating? Poking fun at someone, in many cases, is a sign of acceptance.

 

[delericho]

What happened was that the really big prejudices became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. Then those became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. So now Ginger-ism is the 'acceptable' prejudice. In a few years, that will probably become unacceptable, so it will be Steve-ism, or something similarly stupid.

As for the 'jokes' being harmless, that's easy to say when you're not on the receiving end of them. But when you're the target, I daresay they're rather less funny. Actually, I don't need to say - several of my wife's friends are ginger, so I've seen first-hand how hurtful those 'jokes' can be.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, it's always easy to say jokes are harmless when you're the one making the jokes. As a general principle, that usually holds true, and it's generally the rallying call of bullies. And man, do I hate seeing people bullied.

But I don't think that's the point. Sure, I can find a group of people to whom calling each other anything you can think of is fine. The fact that such groups of people exist doesn't magically make the issue non-existent. And it's not always about how the target of the joke feels - sometimes the issue is that the joker feels that's a joke in a general sense. He might not hate his friend, but it reveals he does have some kind of opinion about the characteristic being joked about, even if it's just that he thinks it's something to be joked about.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

What happened was that the really big prejudices became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. Then those became unacceptable, so people moved down the scale. So now Ginger-ism is the 'acceptable' prejudice. In a few years, that will probably become unacceptable, so it will be Steve-ism, or something similarly stupid.

As for the 'jokes' being harmless, that's easy to say when you're not on the receiving end of them. But when you're the target, I daresay they're rather less funny. Actually, I don't need to say - several of my wife's friends are ginger, so I've seen first-hand how hurtful those 'jokes' can be.

Umm ... gingers aren't the only people that get joked about. I dare say that everyone does. So yeah, I'm confident that I speak from experience. Jokes don't hurt. Cuz they're, you know, jokes.

There's a distinction here that I see a lot of people miss. Not exactly news but also no less frustrating.

 

[delericho]

Umm ... gingers aren't the only people that get joked about. I dare say that everyone does.

If I get joked about for being a geek, or being in a band, or even for being fat, that's something that is under my control. If I get joked about for being black, or female, or gay, or ginger (incidentally, I'm none of these things), then that's something that is not under my control. There's a difference there.

Jokes don't hurt.

Some jokes don't hurt. Some do. And some jokes hurt some people and don't hurt others.

Finally, while a person may well be able to shrug off a joke, it's much harder to shrug it off when you've been getting hit with the same 'jokes', frequently, and for years.

 

[Bagpuss]

Been that way since I was a child. Ginger jokes, not blond/e. Pronounced with hard Gs. The word "redhead" isn't used over hear; you're a ginger.

So in answer to your question of "when" - 40 years ago at least. Probably before.

Yeah you can trace the phrase "beat them like a redhead-stepchild" to the 1840's or even earlier, and it generally linked to the dislike and distrust of Irish immigrants. But also their are references to Viking invasions of Britain that would leave redheaded stepchildren.

So yeah it goes back a long way it isn't something new.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

If I get joked about for being a geek, or being in a band, or even for being fat, that's something that is under my control. If I get joked about for being black, or female, or gay, or ginger (incidentally, I'm none of these things), then that's something that is not under my control. There's a difference there.

The only difference is in how you personally choose to see it. I've been made fun of for things I cannot control and I don't really care. Srsly.

The other difference (erm, scratch that 'only', I guess) is in who it comes from and why. If a friend makes a joke about, well, anything, I don't really care. Cuz it's a joke - I cannot stress this enough. Jokes are different from mean spirited attacks. If I make a joke about someone's ethnicity and my friends laugh that could be just a joke or it could be a racist attack - depends upon who the target is. If the target is a friend who's down with that stuff, it's a joke. If the target is an audience that paid to see me perform (for the record, I'm not a comic or anything) then it's a joke. There's cases where the target doesn't fall into these categories, though. In those cases it's pretty obvious that the 'joke' isn't just a joke.

Some

jokes don't hurt. Some do. And some jokes hurt some people and don't hurt others.

Yep. Generally speaking here. I obviously don't think no one is offended by ginger jokes. What I'm saying is that in the vast majority of cases I don't think they have a reason to be.

Finally, while a person may well be able to shrug off a joke, it's much harder to shrug it off when you've been getting hit with the same 'jokes', frequently, and for years.

Or it's a lot easier. Srsly, bro, if you hear it over and over again it becomes easy to tune out. Er, for a lot of people anyway.

 

[Umbran]

What I'm saying is that in the vast majority of cases I don't think they have a reason to be.

That's fine. You are free to have an opinion on the matter. We have two opinions in conflict - yours and theirs. Your opinion is not, on the face of it, any more valid than theirs. In terms of judging whether they should feel offense, *your* opinions are probably pretty weak material, as they are based on different life experiences.

Simply put - if you're not the one who got beat up as a kid with red hair, you get limited say in whether ginger jokes are hurtful to those with red hair.

 

[Tea He]

I agree with ZB.
Too many people go out of their way to be offended by something nowadays. People need to learn how to relax and stop finding offense because they want to.

Heh... my first wife and current wife are both redheads (yes, they are the devil), and two of my boys are red-heads (hard headed little bastards), and I make fun of them all the time!

 

[Zombie_Babies]

That's fine. You are free to have an opinion on the matter. We have two opinions in conflict - yours and theirs. Your opinion is not, on the face of it, any more valid than theirs. In terms of judging whether they should feel offense, *your* opinions are probably pretty weak material, as they are based on different life experiences.

Simply put - if you're not the one who got beat up as a kid with red hair, you get limited say in whether ginger jokes are hurtful to those with red hair.

Bro, I'm not telling anyone specific to shut up about ginger jokes or whatever, I'm trying to explain why my opinion is what it is.

I also fail to see why I have to have been beaten up or made fun of specifically for having red hair to understand what it's like to be made fun of. That's ... weak. Part of my point is that I have been made fun of for things I cannot control and still have formed this opinion and that I am not alone in that.

By the way, if I can't say ginger jokes aren't hurtful because I've never experienced them, you don't get to say they are unless you have. That's how that line of thought works. Er, if you are and have, well, nevermind that last bit.