Girls (Females) in D&D/Roleplaying

[fusangite]

So, who specifically do you suspect is doctoring their results?

Whenever ENWorlders are asked to generalize about groups of people on the basis of age, occupation, gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc. some people take the position that because all groups are diverse that they willfully refuse to see any general patterns in the behaviours or characteristics of the group under discussion. So, for instance, in this poll, because people have seen some female powergamers, they will refuse to observe that fewer women tend to act like power gamers even though they may well have found this in their own lives.

Currently, a new female player has just joined the game I run. She is impressively numerate and a quick learner of systems but I'm not going to start asserting that female players are just as likely to be numerate and system-focused as males are. I suspect that some people are using experiences like the game I ran last night to somehow invalidate a clear statistical pattern.

 

[Crothian]

Currently, a new female player has just joined the game I run. She is impressively numerate and a quick learner of systems but I'm not going to start asserting that female players are just as likely to be numerate and system-focused as males are. I suspect that some people are using experiences like the game I ran last night to somehow invalidate a clear statistical pattern.

Or perhaps it isn't as clear a statistical pattern as you seem to think. People are just reporting their own expereinces. There have been many responses from a variety of people. Unless it is a big conspiracy of people lying.

 

[barsoomcore]

Or unless fu's identified a DIFFERENT statistical pattern -- about ENWorlder behaviour. Threads like this aren't ever going to be helpful in displaying clear statistical patterns about anything else, so I reckon his direction's as good as any.

After reading three pages of this, you won't have any better idea as to how men and women differ (or don't). But you will have a pretty good idea of how ENWorlders want other people to think THEY see those differences and/or similarities.

Which for no real reason reminds me of Harold Bloom on Hamlet: "Five centuries of critical discussion about Hamlet has taught us nothing about the play itself, but it has revealed numerous truths about those doing the discussing."

 

[fusangite]

Point taken, barsoomcore. I agree 100%

Or perhaps it isn't as clear a statistical pattern as you seem to think. People are just reporting their own expereinces. There have been many responses from a variety of people. Unless it is a big conspiracy of people lying.

What, from my comments, indicates to you that I'm alleging some kind of conspiracy of lies? All I'm saying is that I can see from the frequently occurring phrasing conveying "I've seen women do x; I've seen men do x; therefore there's no general pattern" that this is how some people are processing this issue. Furthermore, why would people from the "everyone is different and unique" camp suddenly decide not to participate in this thread when they participate in all the others?

 

[Crothian]

Because it seems that you think everyone is exagerating or misrepresenting themselves. that is either one heck of a coincidence or people have gotten together and conspired to answer the same way. And now you seem to think that certian posters are also avoiding this thread, perhaps they are being threatened and are afraid to post here.

Actually I have no idea who on these bnoards fits in the everyone is different and unique" camp but I'm sure if we call them out we can get them here.

Now, it has been said for many years that the posters of EN World are a differnet lot from the usual gamers. I can see that as a reason for these responses, but I see no reason to think that people are trying to mislead with their answers.

 

[S'mon]

Hmm - on what fusangite said, typical "Role Wimp" behaviour _seems_ more typically feminine to me, and munchkin power-gamer behaviour _seems_ more masculine to me, but I've seen examples of both from m & f. If a woman is using D&D as a way to kick back, relax and slaughter things the way my wife plays Neverwinter Nights, then she'll seem more to the powergamer side. If a male is using D&D to create a PC who seems like a real living breathing person with a deep inner life, then he'll seem more towards the rolewimp side. Also female D&Ders are a minority of RPers and female RPers are a minority of females, their demographics, given that the focus of the game is violence, may well skew towards a more masculine or less feminine mindset than the societal average. So people aren't necessarily biasing their responses when they say "I know this girl who's the biggest powergamer in the group" - I'm sure they're telling the truth.

 

[fusangite]

So people aren't necessarily biasing their responses when they say "I know this girl who's the biggest powergamer in the group" - I'm sure they're telling the truth.

They aren't lying when they say this but they are answering the question in a misleading way. They are being asked about general patterns they can see from looking at the whole sweep of their gaming careers and they are responding with an isolated annecdote in order to avoid disclosing/examining the general pattern.

Because it seems that you think everyone is exagerating or misrepresenting themselves.

I don't think "everyone" is doing any such thing. I think some people are answering questions in the way I just described to S'mon above. They are disclosing information consistent with their desired statistical outcome and holding back information inconsistent with it. So, your above sentence is one of the few instances in this thread of misrepresentation. The reason I'm making this generalization is that I am looking at the phrasing of people's statements -- so no, I don't think they're lying. If they were lying, I wouldn't be able to see how the statements are strategic and selective simply be examining their wording.

that is either one heck of a coincidence or people have gotten together and conspired to answer the same way.

A bunch of people with the same interests all acting based on those interests requires no collusion at all. Let me compare this to crime statistics; there is a high rate of reoffending for people released from jail. But my political views are very much opposed to "three strikes" type policies. So, when I and others who oppose these policies argue against them, we naturally, based on our own interests, tend to focus on annecdotal stories of people who have broken the pattern of reoffending, and gloss over many statistical generalizations. I don't think I'm lying when I do that. So, I'm not accusing anyone of lying; what I'm saying is that people are being asked for one kind of information and are carefully choosing their language so as to provide another. There's nothing weird, aberrant or unethical about this -- it's a phenomenon that happens every day.

And now you seem to think that certian posters are also avoiding this thread, perhaps they are being threatened and are afraid to post here.

Whoa! When on earth did I say that? I recall saying the opposite. Crothian, the way you're expressing yourself here is really uncharacteristic of your usual level-headed and reasoned posts. What have I done to get under your skin?

 

[S'mon]

They aren't lying when they say this but they are answering the question in a misleading way. They are being asked about general patterns they can see from looking at the whole sweep of their gaming careers and they are responding with an isolated annecdote in order to avoid disclosing/examining the general pattern.

But many male RPers have very limited exposure to female RPers. I've played D&D for 20 years and only in the past 2 have I played and GM'd with women for more than an isolated 'one off' game. I only know 2 female RPers well enough to analyse their style with any depth - of them, one is very much to the 'roleplay not rollplay', the other was more liking a mix of roleplay & dice rolling, now she GMs Heroquest where you can do both at once - it has incredibly crunchy rules to support interpersonal interactions.

 

[WizarDru]

Well, as anything other than an informal poll, clearly this isn't really useful. The questions themselves are too poorly formed to give an actual stastical significance and display some considerable bias on the part of the person asking it. All experience is anecdotal. This thread isn't even relevant to the whole population of ENworld, let alone all gamers, everywhere. With less than 80 responses of actual data on a board with thousands of members, you're not getting much statistical data.

I admit though that I'm not too keen on the intimation that I'm tailoring my answers to give a desired result. I've had girls and women in my games since 1984, and only very rarely have I ever had an all-male game. It's far more likely that I'm statistically at the far end of the bell-curve than the center...but the questions don't really account for that, nor does the survey itself really factor that sort of thing in. It doesn't factor in group-style either, for that matter. My groups tend to stay together for long periods (I've had campaigns run 4, 8 and 10+ years) and we emphasize role-playing more than pure tacticals (although we enjoy a good knockdown as much as anyone). So when I say that some of my women gamers have been some of the most serious number-crunchers, that has to been taken in context of my group, which has less preference for pure power-gaming.

 

[Berandor]

I for one answered truthfully.