Give us an Icewind Dale II Review!

[Nifft]

I'm just at the end of chapter 1.

IWD2 skills are GREAT. Dialogue skills are very well done -- you get different dialogue options depending on whether you're skilled enough (or smart enough, or whatever) to move a conversation in the right direction.

Your race influences which languages you know -- and early on, having someone who speaks a few words of Goblinoid is good.

Clerics IMHO have the most fun -- there are good "flavored" responses to many dialogue options.

All in all, it feels more RP-oriented than any computer game I've played before... being a Priest of Bane was totally unlike being a Priest of Lathander.

-- Nifft

 

[1337 h4xor]

i'll give you a mor in depth review then....

graphics: poor

In a world where every game at least tries to have a 3d element this has none... still the same nonmoving non-interactive backgrounds. Without open gl support as in iwd 1 the fog of war looks even worse. The character animation is poor it's still a step up from the old gold box games but mostly just pixel count. Even with 5 years to further the bg engine they do nothing besides allowing higher resolution modes taht are unsupported.

Skills: nonexistent

Most classes have 1 or 2 class skills that's it... pretty sad

Feats: they've either been modified (improved init reduces speed factor) to form some sort of 2e 3e bastard hybred or left out. You can try to take spell focus for example but it's only there for 4 schools..... no spell focus abjuration for example.

Ai: bad

even with playing with the character scripting ai characters still do things you told them not to... Enemy arent any better... just rush the nearest person and start whacking.

sound: great....

good score


Overall after playing NWN this is a big dissapointment, for many reasons... nwn has lots of eye candy this has none. Nwn follows 3e rules this isn't even close in most things.... for christs sake they couldnt even bother to fix the alignment descriptions.

 

[Aluvial]

Like I said, this doesn't sound like 3rd Edition....

Any other reviews?

 

[evildmguy]

I am not sure why

but I am going to respond to 1337 again.

Graphics - I found your review and descriptions of the graphics to be poor. 2d graphics, even if "every game at least tries to have a 3d element" doesn't mean that the 2d graphics here are poor. I think this is unfair as you are not judging them either to themselves (how good they are) or against something equal, for example, a previous version of the game. As I said, the graphics are still good. For anyone who has seen Mammoth Falls in yellowstone (or any equivalent), the old SSI Dark Sun game still captures that well, and that is six years old!

(As a secondary note, I don't think every game is trying to be 3d anymore. Many war games aren't. They aren't needed.)

Skills: First of all you contradict yourself. You start out by saying they are nonexistant and then you say that each class has one or two.

Second, we don't know that the game doesn't have skills, truthfully. For all we know, it assigns them and runs them in the background. In part, though, you mean picking them and using them. The thief, by far the skill master in 3E, still has the most and they are usable. Beyond that, skills aren't needed.

Case in point, the game uses dialogue branching instead of a persuade roll. (NWN has somewhat of the same thing but it shows you when you are going to use a skill as well as the results of it.) Since we don't see the roll, it could be that here is when the skills are used.

Other skills never come into play in these types of games. Climb, Bluff, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Knowledge (any), Craft (any), Profession (any), Listen (maybe for distance but much of it appears and can be read), Tumble and probably more. None of these were converted and yet that doesn't seem to bother you. Why does the few that did make it bother you? Don't they need to put in the ones that fit?

AI: Can't argue with some aspects of this much. I do find the fights tough and the opponents done well. I don't think the character AI is good. Line, or path, tracing especially is bad. I hate watching them go around a building for no reason. Having said all of that, since this can be completely controlled, there is a word around. Tedious, but a work around.

I think your concluding statements left too much to inference. What "eye candy" did NWNs have that this didn't?

I am not sure why I am arguing this with you. For that, I apologize. I find this to be an enjoyable game. When *any* game is translated from one medium to another, there will be differences. While I completely agree with your personal taste that you didn't like how ID2 did it, I don't think they did a bad job.

Nor do I think this is a bad game.

Again, that's just my opinion.

edg

 

[Red Spire Press]

I had my first infuriatingly impossible battle the other day. Kept on getting my ass handed to me as I tried to destroy some war drums outside a goblin encampment. Wasted a good two hours. I now have the difficulty setting permanently set to one notch below normal.

 

[1337 h4xor]

Re: I am not sure why

Graphics - I found your review and descriptions of the graphics to be poor. 2d graphics, even if "every game at least tries to have a 3d element" doesn't mean that the 2d graphics here are poor. I think this is unfair as you are not judging them either to themselves (how good they are) or against something equal, for example, a previous version of the game. As I said, the graphics are still good. For anyone who has seen Mammoth Falls in yellowstone (or any equivalent), the old SSI Dark Sun game still captures that well, and that is six years old!

I'm simply saying that with the amount of time they had to work on this game, maybe they could have shown a spark of initiative and done a single thing with the engine besides add unsupported resolutions. Dark sun was nice for the time, if it was added into nwn by a module are you telling me it wouldnt look better?

Skills: First of all you contradict yourself. You start out by saying they are nonexistant and then you say that each class has one or two.

Second, we don't know that the game doesn't have skills, truthfully. For all we know, it assigns them and runs them in the background. In part, though, you mean picking them and using them. The thief, by far the skill master in 3E, still has the most and they are usable. Beyond that, skills aren't needed.

they are non-existent, the fact that in 3e you can customize your character through skills, the only class that gets any class skills in iwd is the rogue (dont remember any theif class what page on the phb is it?) So 2 class skills for a fighter is enough for you? ok

Case in point, the game uses dialogue branching instead of a persuade roll. (NWN has somewhat of the same thing but it shows you when you are going to use a skill as well as the results of it.) Since we don't see the roll, it could be that here is when the skills are used.

why not simply let us create characters then tell us a story and have the computer figure out if those characters could have beat the game and if so show us the ending... i have this pesky desire to be in control of games i play instead of being a clickfest.

Other skills never come into play in these types of games. Climb, Bluff, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Knowledge (any), Craft (any), Profession (any), Listen (maybe for distance but much of it appears and can be read), Tumble and probably more. None of these were converted and yet that doesn't seem to bother you. Why does the few that did make it bother you? Don't they need to put in the ones that fit?

i pointed out that the lack of skills bothers me> i didnt realize you wanted a thorough list of all the skills that weren't there. IT BOTHERS ME THAT THERE ARE NO SKILLS!!!!

I think your concluding statements left too much to inference. What "eye candy" did NWNs have that this didn't?

3d models/ high polygon count/ spell effects that dont look like crap/ open gl... i could go on

 

[vturlough]

Good discussion!

1337:

Graphics: A couple of things here. First of all, they obviously couldn't have changed the graphics without changing the engine. While they have had time with the game, it probably hasn't been that much time to revamp the entire engine.

As to asking me between NWN and ID2 for graphics, I find them both very well done. I think they are different enough that I don't try and compare them. (Not just in graphics but in overall game play.)

As to your ending remarks on graphics. Hey, that would be great! What I am saying is that while I understand those are your preferences, it would have been nice in your review that you would have stated that you wanted to see 3d graphics and that's why you don't like the game. Instead, both your first review and your clarification merely point out how bad the graphics of ID2 are *compared* to 3d graphics. I don't think that is a fair comparison. I think that 2d graphics are still viable and that ID2 looks good with the graphics that it has. I am not saying you aren't allowed an opinion. That's not it. The person who started this asked for a review, which usually means opinion backed with facts. I am not sure you have done that.

Skills: Okay, have to disagree with you on this. 3E does NOT let you customize your characters through skills. "Out of the box" 3E just doesn't do it. Only Rogues are customized by the skills they have. Fighters are custmized through the feats they have. Other classes don't have that many skills to choose from. Bard might and they do get more choices here. Most other classes don't.

If you boil away and get to the "essence" of 3E, it is that rogues are defined by their skills. The other classes draw on them but rogues are defined by them. ID2 reflects this by having a lot of skills for rogues and fewer for other classes. Is it perfect? No.

My point with some of the skills that I suggested wasn't that you should list all skills you want to see. It was that CRPGs are still forced and many skills (and other aspects of any P&P game) are not going to be usable. As I said, there is no reason, in any Baldur's Gate engine game, to put skills like Profession, Craft, Knowledge, climb, tumble, etc, into the game. While they could be used, they probably wouldn't be used enough to justify the time it would take to do so.

Again, in the end, I think that the game captures the essence of 3E but no, it is not as good as NWN for using the 3E rules. That doesn't make it a bad game.

Gameplay: Hey! I would *love* a completely open CRPG where you can do anything. What it sounded like to me that you suggested was more of Tomb Raider/Max Payne kind of game. Not a computer role playing game. I say this because even NWN, a standard that you are comparing ID2 to, doesn't allow us as much control over our (single) character that Tomb Raider or Max Payne do. For example, we can't jump. We don't get to control when the character attacks, just when they enter that mode. NWN allows as much control as ID2 because the only areas of control are dialogue and spells. Everything else the computer handles for you.

Good discussion! Thanks for your time and input!

turlough

 

[clark411]

I enjoy IWD 2.


Graphics: While everything practically is sprites, and most armor is varied basically by why color clothing you have, it still is sufficient. The level of detail allowed by the static backgrounds and environments blows away 3d engines which depend heavily on maintaining low polygon counts. The map views are gorgeous, as are character portraits. Unfortunately they did away with NPC portraits. NP- that's what imagination is for.

Sound: Voice acting is beautiful by and large. The music is sweeping and grandiose as it should be in an adventure of epic proportions. They still have only two or three casting sounds, and spells kinda have the unrealistic "BLOOP!" sound to them, but it's alright, we forgive as they sparkle so pretty.

Gameplay: Its good. NPC's react accordingly. Many NPCs have depth, and others are simply comic. You hear Goblins in the caves going "Me Hungry. Orcs get all the food. Me Hate orcs." and later in the cave you find the orcs with the food cooking. Many characters are rather stereotypical (the snotty merchant, the wandering druid/s) while others are original (the dwarf carpenters, the civil Abishai and Dekanter Goblins). Also, one of the nice things is that you reap the benefits of your actions as you progress- you become admired, feared, and get all the appropriate responses you'd hope for.
Unfortunately, it is basically a monty haul hack n slash... BG series is designed for open ended plot... IWD series is the "Kill som-boddy!" type.

 

[1337 h4xor]

Graphics: While everything practically is sprites, and most armor is varied basically by why color clothing you have, it still is sufficient. The level of detail allowed by the static backgrounds and environments blows away 3d engines which depend heavily on maintaining low polygon counts. The map views are gorgeous, as are character portraits. Unfortunately they did away with NPC portraits. NP- that's what imagination is for.

the terrain in nwn is much more detailed so i'm not sure how it's blown away by a static low quality jpg. and the goal of modern 3d engines is to cram as many polygons on the screen as possible without crippling your machine...lol

I always hear how the portraits in iwd 1 and now 2 are so great.... most of them look like blurry watercolors to me. They should try getting the people that do their book cover art to do the portraits for some of these games.

 

[Gaius]

When casting a review of Icewind Dale II, the turn of pharse that best describes my impression of it is "substance over style."

The old Infinity Engine is dated by contemporary standards. Yes, most games today strive to incorporate a 3D element. A majority of recent games have billed themselves on their graphical intensity. Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, and other games outside of the genre, to name a few. However, there was a time not so long ago when the graphics of Baldur's Gate II and Icewind Dale were considered top-notch. And while that may no longer be the case, do these old graphics not entertain us today simply because we've been spoiled by Morrowind and the ilk? If so, I'd say that you and I don't enjoy games for the same reason. A beautifully rendered game that plays like crap is going to have a long life sitting in my closet. An Infinity Engine game that plays like gold is going to get high marks, even if the graphics are vintage.

That said, I have been loving Icewind Dale II, same as I have loved Morrowind, and more than I have loved Neverwinter Nights. Let me preface the following by explaining that I loved the original Icewind Dale above all other Infinity Engine games. I enjoyed having a custom built party of six characters who could take any villian to task. I reveled in the northern tundra that the game was set in and loved the wide array of creative magic items that littered the game. I admit, I enjoyed the hack and slash, Monty Haul aspect of the game. To me, the best part was fine tuning your party, progressing them through the levels and having them equipped with the finest gear.

Where Icewind Dale excelled, its sequel has surpassed. The character creation is more indepth, and the point buy system saves me the countless hours I spent rolling the dice generator. The incorporation of 3rd edition rules is a fine translation for me. Remember, this is a computer game and, as such, cannot be the tabletop experience that we all know and love. It can be, however, another entity that we enjoy just as much. Only differently. For that reason, I was not too terribly upset that the Infinity Engine did not translate over to 3E entirely.

If one is to compare Icewind Dale II to Neverwinter Nights, then I think it's fair to say that Icewind Dale II has NWN beat when it comes to character creation. Icewind Dale II has more feats and more skills. And while I see that some of the above posts have somehow found room to criticize this, I think that the skills are done extremely well in Icewind Dale II. The dialogue branches that result from Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate, in addition to your relative attribute scores, is wonderful. The dialogue that I have seen so far is better than it was in NWN and far better than it was in Icewind Dale. The rogue skills are invaluable and Knowledge (Arcana) is a time and money saver for when you stumble across that great suit of magical armor; same with Alchemy and all those potions. Concentration is the same as in NWN, and Wilderness Lore is fun, if somewhat useless.

So I love the process of generating your party of six, I love the feats, I love the skills, I love the generous selection of races (another thing that NWN lacked in), and I love the NPC dialogue. I've also found combat to be quite enjoyable. It's difficult, as opposed to NWN. For illustrative purposes, the most difficult encounter in NWN to date were the four swords in Never's tomb (I'm approaching Chapter 3, to give you a point of reference). Other than that, I've found the battles to be relatively easy to conquer, including the fight with Desther. Oppose this to Icewind Dale II, where I was already getting rocked in the prologue, when I had to battle the goblin invasion. In NWN, I could slay goblin after goblin and never seriously fear for my safety. In Icewind Dale II, I lost my Paladin and nearly lost my Fighter/Wizard. My Cleric was kept quite busy converting all of his spells to healing spells and everyone had to quaff the potions and chow down on the iron rations. The carnage was great!

Battle is also more than simply selecting an enemy and watching your PC hack away. In a party of six, the micromanagement has always been what I enjoyed. I love orcheastrating my heroes and diverting their attentions to various tasks. It's like a football game; my frontline tanks, my cleric at linebacker, and the wizard and archer in the backfield. There's more to an Icewind Dale II battle than an NWN fight. Since I prefaced this review by stating that I enjoy a hack n slash epic, you'll understand why I have said as much in this paragraph and the preceeding one.

As also stated above, I love the Monty Haul aspect of Icewind Dale II. There is a veritable cornucopia of magical items laying around, each of which is compelling and interesting. I loved reading the descriptions of the items for sale in the prologue. I love the names given to the items. I purchased the Left Hand of Darkness simply because I liked the name and the concept of using a mummy wrapping as a sling. I know that my wizard would be better off with a crossbow, but that's how much I liked the sling. Again, if we are comparing this to NWN, the number of magic items in that game is significantly less.

I mentioned it above, but I'll mention it again; I love the dialogue in Icewind Dale II. The voice acting is well done, and the branches available to savy and charismatic characters is great. While dealing with the Iron Collar Band at the behest of Crale Shawford, I was presented with many means of gaining their compliance or sealing their death. And while I really was itching for a fight, I opted against that path (even though it was clearly there) and convinced them to stand at the wall or be revealed as traitors. Near as I can tell, there were three distinct ways to resolve that conversation and the variety is what I love. I also have enjoyed the not-so-subtle tongue-in-cheek references to the previous Icewind Dale, especially the "Fed-Ex" type missions. The conversation about killing rats cracked me up.

All said, however, I like both NWN and Icewind Dale II. They're both outstanding games, just different. Ultimately, I like Icewind Dale II more, because it all comes back to "substance over style." The Infinity Engine may be showing its age graphics-wise, but the gameplay is still there and its as good as its ever been.

I think that players in my tabletop game can expect to find the Left Hand of Darkness in a tomb near them.

Gaius