Giving fighters something to do.

[RangerWickett]

I once again feel the need to post how unhappy I am with instant kill spells.

AT FOURTH LEVEL!

I could deal with a harm or slay living spell offing a villain (touch range), or a 9th level power word kill spell or something. But phantasmal killer's 4th level, and has a range of medium. I don't care if you get two saves against it; no 4th level spell should just kill someone with so little of a risk to you.

Ditto frikkin spells like baleful polymorph. Yeah, turn the 16th level wizard into a guppy. Great.

Anyway, the main thrust of this post is that I tried to have a big magic villain for the spellcasters to fight, and a big combat villain for the warriors to fight. Instead, since the spellcaster seemed the more immediate threat, the PCs warrior went at him, attacking his bodyguards so they could get to him. Then the spellcasters killed off the magical villain with two spells (greater dispelling, then baleful polymorph). Then the PC warriors turned their attention to the 16th level warrior villain, and he was killed with a phantasmal killer.

I dunno. I'm just a little miffed. I don't mind that the villains lost, just that they were taken down so easily. I really really really want fights to have a rising action, ending with a nice climax. I hate fights that end on round 2, even when there are tons of henchmen. I don't use instant kill spells, even though, yes, logically you'd want to use those first. I want the party to fight their way to the villain, then battle the villain for several rounds of back and forth combat, and then someone does something cool to finish off the villain as the big guns come out at the end.

I can do that with weapon combat, but the magic system encourages you to use HUGE guns first, and then you don't need the 'Big' guns. I mean, in this last fight, after finishing off the two main villains, the mooks weren't really enough of a threat to impede the party, so they surrendered. But if they were fighting with just weapon combat, they'd have to force their way through the mooks to get to the big villain, at which point they'd be worn down, and it'd make the final fight all the more intimidating.

I just don't like high-level offensive spells. High magic I'm fine with. Scry, divine, teleport, shapeshift. Screw with the fabric of reality all you want. But stop killing my bad guys in two hits. Give the warriors something to do!

 

[SteveC]

I once again feel the need to post how unhappy I am with instant kill spells.

AT FOURTH LEVEL!

I could deal with a harm or slay living spell offing a villain (touch range), or a 9th level power word kill spell or something. But phantasmal killer's 4th level, and has a range of medium. I don't care if you get two saves against it; no 4th level spell should just kill someone with so little of a risk to you.

Ditto frikkin spells like baleful polymorph. Yeah, turn the 16th level wizard into a guppy. Great.

Anyway, the main thrust of this post is that I tried to have a big magic villain for the spellcasters to fight, and a big combat villain for the warriors to fight. Instead, since the spellcaster seemed the more immediate threat, the PCs warrior went at him, attacking his bodyguards so they could get to him. Then the spellcasters killed off the magical villain with two spells (greater dispelling, then baleful polymorph). Then the PC warriors turned their attention to the 16th level warrior villain, and he was killed with a phantasmal killer.

I dunno. I'm just a little miffed. I don't mind that the villains lost, just that they were taken down so easily. I really really really want fights to have a rising action, ending with a nice climax. I hate fights that end on round 2, even when there are tons of henchmen. I don't use instant kill spells, even though, yes, logically you'd want to use those first. I want the party to fight their way to the villain, then battle the villain for several rounds of back and forth combat, and then someone does something cool to finish off the villain as the big guns come out at the end.

I can do that with weapon combat, but the magic system encourages you to use HUGE guns first, and then you don't need the 'Big' guns. I mean, in this last fight, after finishing off the two main villains, the mooks weren't really enough of a threat to impede the party, so they surrendered. But if they were fighting with just weapon combat, they'd have to force their way through the mooks to get to the big villain, at which point they'd be worn down, and it'd make the final fight all the more intimidating.

I just don't like high-level offensive spells. High magic I'm fine with. Scry, divine, teleport, shapeshift. Screw with the fabric of reality all you want. But stop killing my bad guys in two hits. Give the warriors something to do!

I know what you're saying. It seems like in a well-prepared group, high-level combat comes down to who gets the best initiative total. Unless you pull your punches, that wizard could easily have taken out the group on his own if he had gotten the drop on your players.

This is going to sound like a broken record (since this is just about always my suggestion), but I'd talk with your group about what their expectations would be from the game. Was that combat what they were looking for for the climax of the adventure? If it wasn't it's time to talk about to them about the genre conventions you want to enforce on the game. Everyone should have something to do in the big battle, but this often requires both the players and the bad guys to use sub-optimal tactics.

I just finished reading the complete archives of The Order of the Stick and their final (?) battle with the big-bad is a great example of how I'd like my adventures to go.

Oh, one other suggestion: run the game using D20 Modern. I'm running a very high-level game right now set in a fantasy universe, and it's much easier to balance things without the high level spells being an issue.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Wow. I'm suprised your poor fighter failed both saves for phantasmal killer was it hightened or something?
Either he got very unlucky or your PC maxed out his DCs for illusions.
btw what level are your PCs?


Always have the PCs do a few battles before fighting the BBEG(s) if you can.
Never count on them to pair off with a specific opponent.
Another thing you can do is make all save or die spells like disentigrate; on a failed save they do 20d6+1d6 per caster level. I've done this in my epic game and it helps both PCs and villains.
Give your villains SR, either through items, spells or just give it to them (you're the DM you can do what ever the hell you want just don't over do it )

I can probably think of some more stuff later. Hope what I typed helps you.

 

[Zappo]

I hear ya. I hate insta-kills from the depth of my heart. I find the basic concept to be inherently flawed. They either do nothing, and make you completely waste a round and a high-level spell slot, or they end the battle outright.

They haven't become a problem in my games, probably because of an unspoken MAD relationship between me and my players, but if they did I would house rule them somehow. Probably rework them so that they only instakill a creature that is either much less powerful than yourself, or weakened somewhat. To keep them balanced and not underpowered, I'd probably make them a bit more reliable by giving them some degree of effect even when they fail.

 

[Squire James]

I suggest a Hero Point system for the players, mostly to make up for the slightly unfair Villain Point system I am also going to suggest. Hero Points add 1d6 to a d20 check (attack roll, ability/skill check, or save), spent after the roll is made but before success is determined.

Villains don't get many Villain Points (I suggest 1 for an adventure's climax, or 3 for a campaign's BBEG), but they are better than Hero Points. Spend 1 point to succeed on one saving throw that would result in what the DM deems failure to be an encounter-ending situation. The villain is then no longer allowed to hurt the PC's, and must try to escape ASAP (the DM doesn't have to tell the players this part ahead of time, unlike the Villain Point concept itself). If the PC's have planned well and deny the villain a means of escape, well, they got him!

 

[Squire James]

The simple solution (if that Hero/Villain Point thing is too cumbersome or you don't think it would work) is to simply ban the insta-kills entirely.

Try to convince them that, in the long run, this is GOOD for player-character survival. If that doesn't work, YOU start blasting at THEM with insta-kills for a while, and remind them that they had their chance to end this nonesense! Then offer to ban such spells again, and let arcane casters replace the spells with something else in their "spells known" or "spellbooks".

Frankly, you may need to wreck one campaign to make the next ones better. Sometimes it works out that way.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My first thought was surprise that the 16th level wizard got taken down so easily. What were his defensive preparations? What was his contingency? Why had be not prepared "Moment of Prescience", the 8th level spell that would give him +16 on any one Save (or anything else) that day? (the last question was a little rhetorical, I know that mind blank might be more appealing at that point). I'm surprised that he failed his secondary Will ST and lost the ability to use the silent stilled "get out of jail" spells he had undoubtedly prepared...


I have to wonder what the DC's of these spells were, because both the wizard and the fighter get to use their strong save to mitigate the worst of the effects of the spells.

 

[shilsen]

I don't use instant kill spells, even though, yes, logically you'd want to use those first.

Are you saying that your NPCs won't use insta-kill spells even if they have them, while the PCs (as evidenced by your story) will? Then it sounds like you need to talk to your players and make sure all of you are on the same page. It also sounds like your players don't have problems with insta-kill spells and are happy to use them as soon as they can (which makes perfect sense if they exist in the game), so some modification of expectations on one side or the other seems to be in order.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't use instant kill spells, even though, yes, logically you'd want to use those first.

This could be your problem. While Phantasmal Killer can't really be countered if successful, spells like Baleful Polymorph create exactly the kind of give and take you're looking for. Once it hits, your party has to either try and reverse the effect with its own Dispel Magic, or compensate for the loss of power.

In one of the toughest fights in our campaign so far, the enemy druid opened the combat with a Baleful Polymorph that changed our wizard into a fluffy bunny rabbit. Instantly, we were on the ropes. The tide turned thrice again in the same combat, when the fighter critted one foe, then when the fighter was killed, and finally when the invisible rogue sneak-attacked the druid, taking him down.

Insta-kill spells are like the fighter (or barbarian) critting with the greataxe. They're meant to turn the tide of a battle. If you're allowing your party to use them, but not using them as a DM, you're naturally going to be at a disadvantage.

Personally, I'd suggest you just start using those spells yourself. But if you truly dislike it, then remove them from your game. Your villains aren't getting a fair shake if they have to save against them, but the PCs never do.

 

[Acid_crash]

I banned them. I don't like them. Make save or Die...talk about a waste of campaign time to get a character to 12th level from 1st only to miss it and die.