Giving Players a peek behind the DM screen

[Bullgrit]

We were a newly formed game group, in our fourth game session (second session with me DMing). I was running a basic dungeon crawl in a moderate-sized dungeon. The Players seemed to be enjoying the play, but we were still getting to know each other’s play style.

As a DM (and as a Player) I prefer to let the dice fall as they will – I don’t like fudging for or against the PCs. I explained this to the Players before I started DMing.

The PCs (five 3rd level characters) had delved pretty far into the dungeon, battling through orcs and ogres and wolves, and a few other critters. They had left a path of death through the dungeon. Once the more organized denizens of the place discovered they had invaders, a large force went through the place looking to kill the adventurers.

The PCs had just battled a couple of ogres, and they were hurt and expended. They decided they either needed to head back out of the dungeon, or they had to find a safe place to hole up. They stepped out of the ogre room, intending to backtrack through the corridors.

They heard a lot of commotion down the hall from where they had come. It sounded like a lot of orcs. The orcs were following the trail of bloody battles through the dungeon.

The party had to get away, but they hadn’t explored further than were they were right then. In their worn condition, they didn’t think they’d survive a fight with a bunch of orcs, so their only option was to try to move through the unexplored halls to hopefully get somewhere they could evade or hide from the enemies coming.

They opened a door across from the ogre room and found a long hallway. They hustled through the door and closed it quietly behind them. They moved down the hall, coming to the end where they found what looked like a one-way secret door – secret from the other side. They heard the door behind them open and orc voices wondering if the invaders had gone this way.

The adventurers opened the door before them, and found it lead to outside the dungeon. They hurried through the door and out of the dungeon.

I could see in every Player’s expression that they thought I had just orchestrated – fudged – their escape. It was too perfect a set up, and too perfect an escape route – right where they needed it for the most climatic escape scene. There were even a couple of groans about how it was too perfect.

“Here, look,” I said. I used a couple of pieces of paper to cover parts of the [printed, not hand drawn] map they hadn’t explored yet, and showed them just the part they could recognize as the ogre room (a unique room with a pit trap in the center), the corridor where the orcs were coming from (with a penciled X where they had left a dead orc patrol), and the hall with the one-way secret door at the end.

The Players looked at the map and saw that I had not fudged any of it for their escape. They laughed, one hooted, and a couple high-fived. The escape scene had happened naturally, and fairly.

That was a critically important moment, for me, as a DM. For those Players, and for me, that was a very fun scene only because it wasn’t orchestrated to be cinematic. It defined our relationship as DM and Players – they knew things in the game would happen naturally and fairly.

Strangely, I’ve met Players who don’t want to “see behind the DM screen” at all, ever, even to prove things are “fair.” I’ve met Players who want the DM to roll dice behind the screen so they can’t see the results. I’ve actually had another DM tell me that showing the map to the Players in the game above was wrong.

What do you think? Assuming you don’t fudge:

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

Bullgrit

 

[brunswick]

I've long been a believer, as a DM, in being seen as fair and I have, for years, been rolling dice rolls (not all, just the 'important' rolls) outside of the screen. I also have been known to explain situations that occurred behind the screen to show that I havent fudged things either for or against the players. I like to think that my players trust me to always be fair but on one or two occasions over the years I have DM'd I have experienced a player (maybe two) audibly question the 'fairness' of a scenario or the odd dice roll (strangely, these same players never questioned when things were too easy for the group!!). I was somewhat surprised therefore when I recently handed my players a 'survey' of how our 4th Ed game is going and one thing that was written by several players in response to my DMing 'style' question was "Keep your dice rolls secret", "We dont need to see all your rolls" and even "The DM can fudge rolls if he wants, if it suits the story!"
In response to your situation re the "Map of the Escape Door", as a DM I wouldnt necessarily be inclined to show them the map unless the players were somewhat resentful that I had 'let them off easy' and I wanted to show them they made it on their own.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What do you think? Assuming you don’t fudge:

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Rarely, but yes.

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Same.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

AFAICT, you could not have done better than to do so, and I would hope that, in your shoes, I would do the same.

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

I would have appreciated it.

Kudos to you!


RC

 

[weem]

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Yep. In my primary campaign, I have 4 players, 2 of which have their own games (that I play in) and the third player has DM'd a lot in the past. They know how these things go, and appreciate insight into how I run my game - so sometimes I will explain something behind the scenes so they have some insight into why something may or may not have happened.

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

It can be nice, but generally I don't want to know. I simply want to know that the DM is not fudging anything... anything at all. I would rather us TPK than know a DM dropped some mobs early etc because he felt like we may not survive. If I am told "I don't fudge anything", that's good enough for me.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

Yes, if they were questioning it - but mine don't question things such as this. They know I do not fudge and that I would rather wipe them out entirely than pull punches. They knew it before we started, and very much wanted it that way themselves.

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

If I knew you were not the kind to fudge things, I would not want to see it - I would assume it happened naturally.

If I was unsure and you offered it up (because I would still not question it even if I wasn't sure), I would indeed appreciate it - though not for the fact that I got to see it with my own eyes (I don't need anything physically proven to me), but rather that you were concerned enough about my desire to play in a non-fudged game that you were willing to do that.

 

[the Jester]

What do you think? Assuming you don’t fudge:

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Sure do, but only after the session is over. Besides, if you don't, a lot of the time the players never learn the cool background of your otyugh barbarian (or whatever it may be).

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Yeah, I do- but I do not need it or resent it if the DM doesn't do this.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

In the circumstances, I prolly would have.

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

It certainly wasn't necessary, but I think it adds to your "impartial DM" cred. I would have appreciated it, yes.

 

[the Jester]

Something related occurs to me...

I let a lot of spoilers and reveals come out in my story hours. Usually this is well after the fact (though I've had to put off writing up a few events for months in order to avoid spoiling the surprise for the pcs- hi, newest Arrow of Law, I'm looking at you), but sometimes there are hints of trouble a-coming in advance. I guess this is pretty much my equivalent of "cut scenes".

 

[Marius Delphus]

What do you think? Assuming you don’t fudge:

I do fudge, but rarely. I don't know what that has to do with the general notion of players being allowed to peek "under the hood," as it were. In the specific case you cite, it seems to me that a certain amount of player trust (and a certain amount of everyone's fun) was on the line, so I'd say the question of fudging is moot: it was simply a good time to do that.

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Absolutely. Several of my players are DMs themselves, and appreciate my being candid with them when it's merited or when I feel like it.

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

In general, yes. The DM's entitled to hide as much or as little as desired, and I don't recall ever having a session spoiled for me, as a player, because I knew too much after the fact.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

If they started belly-aching about the thing being too convenient and in doing so accused me of something I hadn't done, then of course I would have shown it. Heck, I sometimes tell my players what page of the adventure I'm looking at (and how many total pages it has).

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

Too many variables. I don't know whether I would have assumed the door was "added" to the adventure, and I don't know how I would have reacted if I had.

I have to say that what matters, though, is not how people uninvolved in the session (especially strangers who are only reading about the session on the Internet) would have reacted in the same situation. What matters is what you and your players got from the moment... no need to second-guess what happened. Was it a good thing for you and your group? That's the only question that needs answering, IYAM.

HTH. HAND.

 

[Oryan77]

My DM screen is there purely to hide the fact that I'm not wearing pants. My players don't want to look behind it.

 

[MortonStromgal]

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Hopefully they figured it out on their own. If not sometimes they may get a sneak peek.

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

If it didn't come out in game then yes. I have played through entire campaigns where the story was hidden and we all had WTF moment at the end. The DM thought the story had come out in play but none of us clued in. It can be frustrating.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

Yes and No, I don't prebuild my dungeons so the escape door would have been there once I wanted the scene to move on. If I prebuilt and the players thought I had railroaded then I would have showed it to them.

If you were a Player in my group during that game session, would you appreciate the peek at the map for that purpose, or was it unnecessary? Was it detrimental in some way?

I would probably not care either way. I'm more frustrated when I don't know why the Ogre was in the cave of "protection from all bad stuff" and I don't know how he got there

 

[Jeff Wilder]

As a DM, do you occasionally give the Players a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

I don't actually use a screen, except off to the side as a reference. (I compulsively fiddle with dice, so making secret rolls to avoid any metagame thinking isn't a problem for me.)

As a Player, do you like a DM to occasionally give you a peek or explanation of what happened behind the screen?

Generally speaking, I don't need it. In the rare situations like you described, where plausibility is stretched to the breaking point, I appreciate it.

Would you have shown the Players the map of the escape door, as I did? Or would you not have?

If there'd been any groans of disbelief, I definitely would have. My players know I wouldn't deus ex machina them like that, but it could certainly happen that a new player or convention group would be skeptical.

Just as an aside, here's something that I very well might have done, as DM, knowing there is an escape route:

Give the PCs Spot checks (or Survival, for tracking). Those who make the DC notice detritus in the corridors which will, if they're paying attention, give them a clue that there's an entrance closer than the one they came in. (You could make it more satisfying by requiring, say, a Knowledge (nature) check. "Friends, that's the crushed frond of a queen's ear fern, but I didn't notice any of those near the entrance. There must be another way out!")

If the players survive by dint of their own (and their PCs') skill like this, it's likely that you'd never hear those groans of disbelief in the first place. And it doesn't matter that you didn't specifically make mention of those details in your notes, of course. As a DM, inventing details for the players is what you're supposed to do.

But here's the thing: once I decide to do this (which isn't fudging, IMO) and the players roll the dice, I will abide by the results. If I've given them a chance, and they all blow their rolls, then so be it. They may or may not find the other exit by blind luck, but I've done my job as DM.

Oh, and as another aside, coincidentally, a very similar experience on Sunday, during my M&M game:

The players were battling Queen Mab, in the Realm of Faerie, and she was beating their asses, turning them into hedge-pigs, charming them, and so on. All (almost!) of her powers were at X rank, so the saving throws were 10+X. The heroes were handily making or failing the saves all day.

Finally, though, they're preparing to combine attacks for a devastating salvo on Mab. She gets to go first, though, and attempts to charm the melee brick, which would be devastating to their plan and their chances of winning. "DC 23," I say, as I've been saying all day, and he rolls ... and gets a 22. Ouch.

But I look at my notes, and, damn it, this particular power is DC 22, because she can split it up among multiple targets. So I have to say, "Wait ... actually, you made it." My players know I don't fudge, but the circumstances of that screw-up were a little much, so, yeah, I showed them Mab's stat-block: Blast 13, Snare 13, Blah 13, Yadayada 13, Emotion Control 12.