Giving players narrative control: good bad or indifferent?

I'm not going to rehash my utter disagreement with this presentation of healing surges. I will just say that I wish you would not bring that discussion into this thread, even with the supposed qualifier in the last sentence - one of the whole points of a new thread was so people talk about something other than healing surges (I have no wish to yank this thread in that direction)
Agreed. And I won't rehash that not a single person in the thread where this conversation appropriately belongs was able to present an example that doesn't match this presentation of surges. :)


Actually per this thread, some people really dislike (A) or at the very least are very uncomfortable with it.

Reading through the thread opinions run a wide spectrum. Some like "some" player narrative control, some like narrative control only in the context of games specifically designed for it, and some hate even the hint of player narrative control.
I agree. But suspect some people would like the eyeball fireballs as well. I don't think this thread shows that the proportions of opinions, just the range.
 

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So when you say "established" you really mean "established with/by the players". Now if I as DM have already decided that the villain has taken the shortest route... then why should a PC who is looking for a shorter route succeed? That particular avenue is not viable at this point (I don't see how this is any different than deciding a NPC doesn't respond well to intimidation??)... If I as DM have taken the time to establish this in my notes, on a map or whatever... I would assume it is important to the narrative thus why should it suddenly change? Especially if there are other avenues in which to overcome this particular challenge. Why is a story where they find a shorter route... better than a mad dash through a crowded street using footwork (athletics and/or acrobatics), quick wits and keen eyes(insight and/or perception), while not alerting unddue attention (stealth and/or streetwise) to slowly gain on the villain?


Because in a true simulation, the GM cannot have DECIDED that the NPC took the optimal route. He has to simulate the decision making process. Which means the NPC's knowledge of the city is approximated by skill checks, which he then must roll. For a non-simple, non-obvious route, unless the NPC prepared and planned this route, it would be utter BS that the NPC just happened to take the perfect route.

If the NPC was supposed to respond poorly to Intimidation, then he must have the skills and feats to represent that and must actually succeed in their usage when confronted with Intimidation.

That's the point of simulation, that the SYSTEM reflects the behavior. Rather than GM fiat, which i would take to mean a narrativist style.

This is why I'm still a bit puzzled by anybody thinking the PC can't ask for a shortcut. If the player has a valid argument that a skill check is in order to validate whether the NPC or PC has the best route, then run the check, and come up with some explanation that supports the result. Maybe it's a shortcut that you hadn't planned on, maybe its knowledge of traffic patterns and construction work going on in the city. That's the GMs job, no different than explaining why I missed with my sword in the last attack.


Side question, related to hussar's huffy DM syndrome:
a child and parent were in line at Subway today. The kid asked if they could have a cookie. Over and over and over and over again. It was annoying.
Do you buy the kid a cookie?

the kid is a Player, the parent is the GM. Are we facing a hesitancy by the GM to allow for players to ask for things?

Personally, I grew up that you don't ask for things, and you sure as hell don't keep pestering. The result would be any possible Yes turning to an absolute No (and prolly a spanking when you got home).

I've seen this pattern in others who are in authority. It's an obstinancy that comes up when subordinates try to get their way. Not invented Here syndrome is probably related (the rejection of any idea or solution that comes from external rather than found/developed within the group).
 

Because in a true simulation, the GM cannot have DECIDED that the NPC took the optimal route. He has to simulate the decision making process. Which means the NPC's knowledge of the city is approximated by skill checks, which he then must roll. For a non-simple, non-obvious route, unless the NPC prepared and planned this route, it would be utter BS that the NPC just happened to take the perfect route.

If the NPC was supposed to respond poorly to Intimidation, then he must have the skills and feats to represent that and must actually succeed in their usage when confronted with Intimidation.

That's the point of simulation, that the SYSTEM reflects the behavior. Rather than GM fiat, which i would take to mean a narrativist style.

I think it would be entirely possible for the villain to have mapped out his escape route... it's also possible that he does in fact know the shortest route to a point in the city. You're making assumptions that were not presented... we have no way of knowing the why of his knowing the shortest route... only that it had been important enough for the GM top note it in the particular encounter.

As to the more general thrust of your post above...who is arguing exact simulation vs. narrative. I'm puzzled as to how to respond to this as I don't believe I've been arguing for sim vs. narrative in the discussion.

This is why I'm still a bit puzzled by anybody thinking the PC can't ask for a shortcut. If the player has a valid argument that a skill check is in order to validate whether the NPC or PC has the best route, then run the check, and come up with some explanation that supports the result. Maybe it's a shortcut that you hadn't planned on, maybe its knowledge of traffic patterns and construction work going on in the city. That's the GMs job, no different than explaining why I missed with my sword in the last attack.

Some things just are... there's no conflict, one thing is and one thing isn't... I certainly have things in my notes that aren't going to change because a player suggested changing it.

On another note, you present a qualifier... "If the player has a valid argument that a skill check is in order...". Yet your argument seems to pre-suppose this is the case. Why is that? also who deciedes if it's "valid"? If it's the DM then you're saying he has the right to say that it isn't valid and that the NPC really does take the shortest route. The thing I don't understand is why doing this auto-magically makes someone's game worse to some people?


Side question, related to hussar's huffy DM syndrome:
a child and parent were in line at Subway today. The kid asked if they could have a cookie. Over and over and over and over again. It was annoying.
Do you buy the kid a cookie?

the kid is a Player, the parent is the GM. Are we facing a hesitancy by the GM to allow for players to ask for things?

Personally, I grew up that you don't ask for things, and you sure as hell don't keep pestering. The result would be any possible Yes turning to an absolute No (and prolly a spanking when you got home).

I've seen this pattern in others who are in authority. It's an obstinancy that comes up when subordinates try to get their way. Not invented Here syndrome is probably related (the rejection of any idea or solution that comes from external rather than found/developed within the group).


How about, IMO, it's just a preference of playstyle on both sides of the table, and we've seen players and DM's argue for and against it... so I honestly don't think your theory applies in any meaningful way to this situation.
 

I think it would be entirely possible for the villain to have mapped out his escape route... it's also possible that he does in fact know the shortest route to a point in the city. You're making assumptions that were not presented... we have no way of knowing the why of his knowing the shortest route... only that it had been important enough for the GM top note it in the particular encounter.

As to the more general thrust of your post above...who is arguing exact simulation vs. narrative. I'm puzzled as to how to respond to this as I don't believe I've been arguing for sim vs. narrative in the discussion.



Some things just are... there's no conflict, one thing is and one thing isn't... I certainly have things in my notes that aren't going to change because a player suggested changing it.


I'm advising against a playstyle thought process.

The GM technically decides in all cases. If you want more variance in the solutions the PCs can pursue, the LESS you document, plan and take note, the more open and effectively random the possible solutions.

Thus, of all my NPCs that will EVER run away from the PCs, only a small % of them should have the perfectest route across a complex city map. Mostly reserved for the super-genius PCs (so as to simulate an NPC smarter than me or the players). Everybody else, "tries" to take the best route and it is assumed they do, until challenged by the PCs and they have to prove it. Just like the PCs would have to prove it if the roles were reversed.

In a way, I am challenging absolutism of the GM's notes. There's no way his notes actually cover every detail. Nor, that just because the GM can declare the NPC does something successfully, does it mean that is actually fair resolution. Up until it makes player contact, it certainly expedites things.

But once it is directly opposed, maybe the GM does NOT have that right.

Change the question to "Is there an Apple cart along the street?" The player might want to throw an apple at the NPC or steal one. Or simply buy one so he can eat it while staring at the direction the NPC went.

In this case, there's no contest. The player has a valid question that the cart might exist. But there's no real debate on whether the AppleMan could have known to park his cart right there or not by GM fiat or player whim. It's there or it isn't and up until the PC asked, it wasn't even important.

In the case of the chase, as a player, at the moment I'm pursuing him, if I have to make checks to navigate the city efficiently, so should the NPC. The GM by-passing that better have a good reason.

JC said he prefers a more simulationist than narrativist. He's certain open to "creating content" when players ask about things not on the notes.

I would propose that certain other things should NOT be in the notes. thus, the notes should not say:
NPC takes the optimal path from point A to point B while the PCs pursue him. The PCs can only stop him if they out-run him or magic.

they could say:
NPC takes the best path he knows from point A to point B. If the PCs pursue him, make such-and-such checks as needed.

For me, a lot of times, I'm hesitant to put that much. I may detail NPCs and places, but I may avoid putting them in one specific spot (unless they are mostly stationary). thus, I will put NPCs in-game, where it makes sense. As such, I don't know or plan on NPC being at point A, for me to know when I need him to run to point B (because he may never have need to run, running is the "new" idea that occurs to the NPC).

I don't know what this concept should be called. But using the system to determine actual events seems a simulationist thing to do. using notes to declare absolute events seems what a narrator would do (hence being narativist). Note, I used "events" and not "facts".

the apple cart is a fact. It's either on 5th street or on this street.
the villain carrying a rod of evil-stuff is a fact.

The players may not like it, but generally, the GM does get to freely determine where stuff is (the apple cart is at 6th street today, and the villain owns a Rod of Evil-Stuf and carries it on his person)

the villain racing acros town is an event. It is someting that he intends to do well, but may be contested by the players and the rules.

My reasoning on handling events has plenty of holes. I don't expect the GM to roll every attack and skill check that happens off-camera from the PCs. So when the villain murders the mayor, sure, that's an event, and the PCs sure didn't want it to happen. But they weren't around in anyway that would make me have to prove how it went down because they might interfere.

I think timing would be a cue as to when this principle might apply. If the PCs are sleeping, and the villain goes to the mayor for a secret meeting, and then kills the mayor. There's nothing the PCs could do to interject into round 3 when the mayor actually dies. They weren't even around to be part of initiative. So they couldn't be racing to th spot to get there by round 2 to change the outcome. Therefore, there's no need to run the murder as a combat.

But in the race from A to B (presumably hot on the tail of the NPC), there's a lot of factors at stake. are both parties using the "city" map that does not show alleys as known pathways? Are both parties abstracting the city to a couple die rolls?

it certainly wouldn't be fair if the GM said the NPC was using alleys and backways that weren't on the map to run the perfect route, but the PCs have to roll for it, or worse, stick to the map, which doesn't show those. especially with a PC who "knows" the city.

Now we've kind of looped in topic to the beginning of the thread.

I would propose for GMs:
allow for both NPC and PC to use the same mechanisms to determine sucess
be cautious of over-detailing events
consider that some GM info is possibilities rather than fact, thus opening options for alternate player solutions.
 

I think it would be entirely possible for the villain to have mapped out his escape route... it's also possible that he does in fact know the shortest route to a point in the city.
Exactly. And that's why it's _also_ possible that he just _thinks_ he knows the shortest route!
You're making assumptions that were not presented... we have no way of knowing the why of his knowing the shortest route... only that it had been important enough for the GM top note it in the particular encounter.
Who is this 'we'?
It sounds like you're arguing for a kind of railroading:
The GM decides that there is no way to prevent the villain from escaping, because that's the required result of the encounter. Otherwise the next encounter, which relies on that result won't work, thus wrecking the entire adventure.

If the GM wants to allow for the players' actions to change the predetermined result, he'll have set a DC (or decide on one on the fly) for the required actions _or_ allow an ingenious approach to work automatically.

In every case it's the GMs prerogative to make a decision to follow his original plan or let the players (temporarily) derail the adventure. The players usually don't even know if there ever _was_ a plan.

Imho, giving the players narrative control is _usually_ a good thing. But sometimes it's better for a DM to stick to the original plan.

Naturally, it also depends on the DM: Myself, I like to prepare encounters in a way that they're easy to modify, replace or omit and reuse later. So, I typically got nothing to lose by following the players' ideas.
There are limits of course: If the players suddenly decide to do something else entirely I might end up having prepared nothing I can quickly adapt to the changed circumstances. At that point all I can do is talk to them OOC and ask for a vote to end the session early so I can prepare something or backtrack a bit and postpone their alternative ideas.

If I'd prepare everything in excruciating detail, things would be different. E.g. if we agreed to play a particular Adventure Path, then there's basically only as much freedom as has been written into it.
 

Exactly. And that's why it's _also_ possible that he just _thinks_ he knows the shortest route!

No, if I as DM have decided that he knows the shortest route... then he does. It becomes a fact present in the scene I have set. Now this doesn't have to be the case and I could decide with a roll... if I felt the NPC wouldn't have taken the time or didn't have the time to scout ahead or isn't familiar enough with the city, or numerous other things. But again, if I have put this in my notes then I have decided it is a relevant fact to the encounter in the same way PC's decide facts about their character before the start of a game and I can't just change them.


Who is this 'we'?
It sounds like you're arguing for a kind of railroading:
The GM decides that there is no way to prevent the villain from escaping, because that's the required result of the encounter. Otherwise the next encounter, which relies on that result won't work, thus wrecking the entire adventure.

Whoah, no one equated the villain knowing the shortest route with him making an auto-escape. Nothing in the fact that the NPC knows and takes the shortest route assures his escape... what it does and does not is set the expectations for what are and aren't viable solutions to capturing him. Finding a shorter route... not valid. Finding a quicker way to traverse the shortest route...perfectly viable. Using magic like an eladrin's teleportation...valid. A rogue using Acrobatics to flip, run up walls and avoid street traffic...again valid.

If the GM wants to allow for the players' actions to change the predetermined result, he'll have set a DC (or decide on one on the fly) for the required actions _or_ allow an ingenious approach to work automatically.

Uhm, okay... how is this any less true when the GM sets certain parameters within the encounter? How is it more exciting to make one roll to find a shortcut and beat the villain... as opposed to a high speed, skill charged chase along the road?

In every case it's the GMs prerogative to make a decision to follow his original plan or let the players (temporarily) derail the adventure. The players usually don't even know if there ever _was_ a plan.

Imho, giving the players narrative control is _usually_ a good thing. But sometimes it's better for a DM to stick to the original plan.

Well I at least agree with the sentiment that giving or restricting narrative control with players isn't an objectively good or bad thing.

Naturally, it also depends on the DM: Myself, I like to prepare encounters in a way that they're easy to modify, replace or omit and reuse later. So, I typically got nothing to lose by following the players' ideas.
There are limits of course: If the players suddenly decide to do something else entirely I might end up having prepared nothing I can quickly adapt to the changed circumstances. At that point all I can do is talk to them OOC and ask for a vote to end the session early so I can prepare something or backtrack a bit and postpone their alternative ideas.

No one is arguing that you remove the ability of players to affect the world in a narrative way (at least I'm not)... what I am arguing is that...

1. It is not objectively better (storywise or gamewise) to give PC's narrative control... iot's a playstyle and like all playstyl;es has it's advantages and drawbacks.

2. In the original situation I don't see how auto-magically creating an "I win" shortcut creates a better experience for everyone at the table (which is what most people are arguing narrartive control in the player's hands should do.). In fact it seems this is being used just to make the situation easier on the players.

If I'd prepare everything in excruciating detail, things would be different. E.g. if we agreed to play a particular Adventure Path, then there's basically only as much freedom as has been written into it.

Eh, again excruciating detail, at least in my mind, has nothing to do with it. However the notes I do make for an encounter whether vague or detailed are there for a reason and unless I feel the game will be improved by a suggestion (which I clearly don't in the case of the OP) I don't see a reason to change these particular things... anything not noted though is up for grabs, such as the apple cart suggested by an earlier poster.
 

No, if I as DM have decided that he knows the shortest route... then he does. It becomes a fact present in the scene I have set. Now this doesn't have to be the case and I could decide with a roll... if I felt the NPC wouldn't have taken the time or didn't have the time to scout ahead or isn't familiar enough with the city, or numerous other things. But again, if I have put this in my notes then I have decided it is a relevant fact to the encounter in the same way PC's decide facts about their character before the start of a game and I can't just change them.




Whoah, no one equated the villain knowing the shortest route with him making an auto-escape. Nothing in the fact that the NPC knows and takes the shortest route assures his escape... what it does and does not is set the expectations for what are and aren't viable solutions to capturing him. Finding a shorter route... not valid. Finding a quicker way to traverse the shortest route...perfectly viable. Using magic like an eladrin's teleportation...valid. A rogue using Acrobatics to flip, run up walls and avoid street traffic...again valid.


We're diverging from player narrative control a bit, but the topic may bear some fruit.

I'm advising against DM certainty. Do not absolutely declare the NPC is taking the best route.

Let's say we've got a lower level party (to eliminate teleports and other "really easy" solutions.
The bad guy is going to run from Point A to Point B. Presumably when they confront him.

Let's say it is 12 blocks away to Point B. Across a diagonal (thus not a straight path down the street), and thus subject to some consideration on the best path.

1) The most obvious choice is to run directly after the NPC. This is basically some Run checks. If you don't truly lose sight of the NPC, you don't even need to know where he's going.

The GM may or may not make a mini-game of dodging and weaving through crowds. So this could be simple Run checks or more complicated.

2) The PC could grab a horse (if one exists, more narrative control being asked for) and then chase the NPC. If Horse exists, this could be a very short chase unless NPC does likewise.

3) Other options were to go up and over buildings. Going up would actually complicate things, as the NPC has to do climb checks, and some kind of check to cross buildings, especially across streets. Tactically, it might make things slower unless the street path is considerably longer. Otherwise, this is how a PC's climb and jump skills can contribute to the chase.

4) there could be alleys and shortcuts through buildings. If the GM's map shows things at the block level, it abstracts this information, and thus the GM would have to generate a lot of details spontaneously, or use die rolls to abstractly handle it (streetwise). Thus, the player's streetwise skill contributes to the chase.

If you declare the NPC has taken the BEST path, then the only way to beat the NPC to Point A is to outrun him by method 1 or 2. Methods 3 and 4 are inviable because there is ABSOLUTELY NO SHORTER PATH.

Reducing solution options is what a RR GM would do. This in turn leads to greater certainty of outcome, which is another goal of an RR GM.

Now, I do see SOME situations where it makes sense that the NPC has a routing advantage. Dr. Moriarty is going to have planned his route, as he predicted being confronted by Sherlock at Point A. The Dr. is smarter than me, so I'm going to simulate that by giving him an advantage. I might measure the exact best route* or more simulationisty, assume he took 20. Which means he gets the best route his skill + 20 allows for (maybe +2 if he got help from a local guide he later killed).

*Route optimization is a problem I have been paid to solve professionally. For a computer, you are dependent on the quality of the mapping data. Sorting through all possible paths is one problem, in the real world, you can compound this by time of day factors and lack of details in the map (like alleys).

So, depending on the map's level of detail, it may NOT be possible for a GM to PROVE his NPC has the best route even by looking at the map. Discounting for actual events going on the streets at the time of play. Which might not be accounted for by the DM other than fiat.

To sum up, being abstract allows for more variance in outcomes. It's also probably less paperwork.
 

We're diverging from player narrative control a bit, but the topic may bear some fruit.

I'm advising against DM certainty. Do not absolutely declare the NPC is taking the best route.

But you haven't provided an objectively good reason fore taking such a blanket stance... that's my problem with your statements, nothing in them shows me why this is a better way.

Let's say we've got a lower level party (to eliminate teleports and other "really easy" solutions.
The bad guy is going to run from Point A to Point B. Presumably when they confront him.

Let's say it is 12 blocks away to Point B. Across a diagonal (thus not a straight path down the street), and thus subject to some consideration on the best path.

1) The most obvious choice is to run directly after the NPC. This is basically some Run checks. If you don't truly lose sight of the NPC, you don't even need to know where he's going.

The GM may or may not make a mini-game of dodging and weaving through crowds. So this could be simple Run checks or more complicated.

So we've got a situation that could provide enjoyment in the realm of a skill challenge that doesn't require that the villain not know the most direct route. I also think that dependant upon what is actually taking place in the street this can be far from a simple series of "run checks".

2) The PC could grab a horse (if one exists, more narrative control being asked for) and then chase the NPC. If Horse exists, this could be a very short chase unless NPC does likewise.

And since I have made no notations about what is or isn't found in the streets and this seems reasonable to me as DM I would definitely allow it... with appropriate checks.

3) Other options were to go up and over buildings. Going up would actually complicate things, as the NPC has to do climb checks, and some kind of check to cross buildings, especially across streets. Tactically, it might make things slower unless the street path is considerably longer. Otherwise, this is how a PC's climb and jump skills can contribute to the chase.

This is an option but I don't see what it brings on a gameplay or story level that can't be accomplished with the dash along the shortest route skill challenge (it's still a chase composed of skill checks.), especially if the DM and players are an imaginative lot? There is ample opportunity in that scenario for numerous skills to be used.

4) there could be alleys and shortcuts through buildings. If the GM's map shows things at the block level, it abstracts this information, and thus the GM would have to generate a lot of details spontaneously, or use die rolls to abstractly handle it (streetwise). Thus, the player's streetwise skill contributes to the chase.

No, I've already noted what the optimal path is, if anything I would allow a check to see these paths would take longer... but a failure would result in a PC not realizing this and generating a failure for the SC.

If you declare the NPC has taken the BEST path, then the only way to beat the NPC to Point A is to outrun him by method 1 or 2. Methods 3 and 4 are inviable because there is ABSOLUTELY NO SHORTER PATH.

No it's not, because as I have said numerous times I have defined nothing but what is the shortest route... I have not defined the best way to traverse said route, I have not defined any obstacles (or lack of) upon said route or anything else.

Reducing solution options is what a RR GM would do. This in turn leads to greater certainty of outcome, which is another goal of an RR GM.

You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion is wrong. The playing field has to be constrained to a certain point... otherwise it is ridiculously open...

"You're railroading us because the dungeon is underground instead of floating in the air where I could use my fly spell to get us out safely."

...see how silly a broad statement like... a RR DM reduces solution options...can become?

Now, I do see SOME situations where it makes sense that the NPC has a routing advantage. Dr. Moriarty is going to have planned his route, as he predicted being confronted by Sherlock at Point A. The Dr. is smarter than me, so I'm going to simulate that by giving him an advantage. I might measure the exact best route* or more simulationisty, assume he took 20. Which means he gets the best route his skill + 20 allows for (maybe +2 if he got help from a local guide he later killed).

Sorry you have still failed to show how me deciding that the NPC doesn't know the most optimal route in any way created a better game experience... as well as how I deciding he knows the best route creates a railroad... but hey I'm still open to reason.

*Route optimization is a problem I have been paid to solve professionally. For a computer, you are dependent on the quality of the mapping data. Sorting through all possible paths is one problem, in the real world, you can compound this by time of day factors and lack of details in the map (like alleys).

So, depending on the map's level of detail, it may NOT be possible for a GM to PROVE his NPC has the best route even by looking at the map. Discounting for actual events going on the streets at the time of play. Which might not be accounted for by the DM other than fiat.

I'm not really sure what point you are making here... so I'll leave it at that.

To sum up, being abstract allows for more variance in outcomes. It's also probably less paperwork.

But more variance does not equal... better...especially if that variance includes less fun/interesting/engaging options in it's set. That's what I feel like you are missing... you haven't shown why more is objectively better.
 
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We're diverging from player narrative control a bit, but the topic may bear some fruit.

I'm advising against DM certainty. Do not absolutely declare the NPC is taking the best route.

Excellent advice. I'd XP you for it if I could, but I apparently gave XP to you too recently to do so.
 

I'm advising against DM certainty. Do not absolutely declare the NPC is taking the best route.

If we are talking certainty of outcomes then I agree. The shortest route to a point being known is not a certainty of outcome, it is merely a fact that will likely have an effect on the outcome.

The mistake would be in assuming that, because the villain is following the shortest route, he gets away.

Not everything in the game world has to be negotiable in order to solve a problem. When confronted by a 50' wall do you figure out how to get over a 50' wall or spend time thinking about how to arrange things so that the wall was really only 20' high?
 

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