Giving players narrative control: good bad or indifferent?

[Janx]

But you haven't provided an objectively good reason fore taking such a blanket stance... that's my problem with your statements, nothing in them shows me why this is a better way.

...snip...
But more variance does not equal... better...especially if that variance includes less fun/interesting/engaging options in it's set. That's what I feel like you are missing... you haven't shown why more is objectively better.

failure on my part to explain my point, doesn't invalidate the point itself.

the * point about route optimization is merely to establish credentials that I may know more about the topic of routing than the general population. It's possible that you too have done similar work. But if you haven't spent any time working on such algorithms, I ask you to consider that you as a DM may not actually correctly divine the true best path, therefore how could your NPC do so?

Let me try a different, and hopefully shorter tack. if your NPC takes the best path, then the PC has NO choice but to follow him. Any mini-games you put along the way, be it dodging carts, jumping buildings, etc does not represent a choice. The PC is forced to play your mini-games because there are no other viable solutions.

By planning it, you limit it and are more likely to eliminate equally valid and fun alternative solutions.

With what I propose, I don't see any reason you can't make a mini-game out of the shortcut or the building hopping (which is a shortcut). The difference being:

the Runner PC will just run after the NPC
the street-saavy PC will out-maneuver the PC by way of the backstreet knowledge
the jumpy PC will prefer racing across rooftops to finally jump down on the NPC

When the NPC takes the true shortest path, by definition, no other paths are better. At best, the PCs can only hope to navigate the one true path faster than the NPC.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Let me try a different, and hopefully shorter tack. if your NPC takes the best path, then the PC has NO choice but to follow him. Any mini-games you put along the way, be it dodging carts, jumping buildings, etc does not represent a choice. The PC is forced to play your mini-games because there are no other viable solutions.

HOW COW! Talk about predetermination.

No choice, really? What about the classic tactic of figuring out where he's going and arrange to be waiting for him? Work smarter not harder!

 

[Imaro]

failure on my part to explain my point, doesn't invalidate the point itself.

You haven't failed to explain your point... what you've failed to do is validate it with anything other than your opinion.

the * point about route optimization is merely to establish credentials that I may know more about the topic of routing than the general population. It's possible that you too have done similar work. But if you haven't spent any time working on such algorithms, I ask you to consider that you as a DM may not actually correctly divine the true best path, therefore how could your NPC do so?

Unless of course I decide that he does. I'm still not understanding you, are you arguing for some type of in-depth simulation through assigning chance to all available variables within the game world?

Let me try a different, and hopefully shorter tack. if your NPC takes the best path, then the PC has NO choice but to follow him. Any mini-games you put along the way, be it dodging carts, jumping buildings, etc does not represent a choice. The PC is forced to play your mini-games because there are no other viable solutions.

Wrong, with magic alone the PC has an option to create a shorter path... the PC has the option not to chase him at that moment and try to hunt him down later. The PC's have the option to open fire on him with ranged weapons and try to kill/knock him unconscious if they want. The PC's have the option to pursue... and so on. The only thing the PC's can't do is declare they know a shorter route through the city than the NPC... just as they can't suddenly declare they aren't in a city but in a forest instead... though they may not know the entire layout of the city.

By planning it, you limit it and are more likely to eliminate equally valid and fun alternative solutions.

Or I get my players to think creatively and use ingenuity in the actual parameters of the challenge instead of short circuiting it with a narrative "I win with a single check" button. See there's no reason to assume I am not also eliminating just as many un-fun alternative solutions as well... which is something you seem to keep glossing over and not addressing in our converstion.

With what I propose, I don't see any reason you can't make a mini-game out of the shortcut or the building hopping (which is a shortcut). The difference being:

the Runner PC will just run after the NPC
the street-saavy PC will out-maneuver the PC by way of the backstreet knowledge
the jumpy PC will prefer racing across rooftops to finally jump down on the NPC

When the NPC takes the true shortest path, by definition, no other paths are better. At best, the PCs can only hope to navigate the one true path faster than the NPC.

shortest does not equal best... think about that for a minute.

Earlier I gave numerous examples of other actions the PC's could take so your assertion that they have only one choice seems moreso based around your inability to come up with options within the parameters than there really only being one option, this along with the avoidance of addressing the negative side of variance is why I am still not seeing your playstyle as objectively better than another more confinced one. This is of course all with the caveat that extremes are bad either way.

 

[billd91]

HOW COW! Talk about predetermination.

No choice, really? What about the classic tactic of figuring out where he's going and arrange to be waiting for him? Work smarter not harder!

?!?
Isn't this the situation that sparked this whole debate in the first place? How are the PCs going to "work smarter" and arrange to wait for the NPC to be there if the NPC is, by definition, taking the shortest route? I thought working smarter entailed asking if they can find shorter or faster routes by making a know (geography) or know (local) check.

 

[Guest 85555]

I think ExploderWizard meant figure out where the villain plans to go after he makes his escape. That way it is less about intercepting him as he flees through the city and more about anticipating his long term plans.

 

[Janx]

I think ExploderWizard meant figure out where the villain plans to go after he makes his escape. That way it is less about intercepting him as he flees through the city and more about anticipating his long term plans.

I've assumed the entire point of the shortcut question was that PC knows where the NPC is going. If you do not know his destination, you can't determine if there is a shorter path from your current position.

"Or I get my players to think creatively and use ingenuity in the actual parameters of the challenge instead of short circuiting it with a narrative "I win with a single check" button. See there's no reason to assume I am not also eliminating just as many un-fun alternative solutions as well... which is something you seem to keep glossing over and not addressing in our converstion."

Nobody in this thread ever said PCs have the power to change reality by player suggesting (barring some specific game systems).

And technically, EVERY chase is about finding a shortcut. Even in NASCAR, the best way to pass is on the insider, which is SHORTER.

A chase scene is inherently about who is faster or who can navigate better. A DM who declares the NPC has taken the perfect route has just cock-blocked 50% of the standard strategy.

Of course this is my opinion. But I actually know how complicated routing is, and on this topic, it is unrealistic if every NPC has perfect routing. Of all chases you run, only a minority of them should involve the NPC truly having determined the best route (probably a prepared genius who planned on it).

Everybody else is realistically constrained by limits of their own knowledge of the area and the abstractness of the game map given that it was an imaginary construct. Even assuming the GM's perfect knowledge, common advice for NPCs is to play them as themselves with THEIR knowledge, not the GMs. Here's a challenge. Pull up Google Maps for your city. There's a world of difference on your options when you have Satellite mode turned on. How much info does your game map carry? How does that differ from what NPCs and PCs actually know?

And this goes to what EW said about the 50' wall. A wall is an object. It is or is not 50 feet tall. A route is information. Knowledge and calculation. For which the game system has skills to determine if the character is aware of. The game system does not have rules to determine what objects appear where or their traits.

Since a chase is about catching up, cutting off or reaching the end point, shortcut finding is part of the encounter challenge. To rule otherwise is unrealistic to the concept. Therefore, the possibility of a shortcut existing must exist. That might mean 2 skill checks to determine the best path for each party (and that the NPC does indeed figure out the better path). it might mean that the shortcut is available, IF your PC can cross the 50' wall that surrounds the palace.

 

[Guest 85555]

Again,my reading of exploder wizards comment is he is talking post chase destination (ie after the villain loses the pcs he will wander around a bit then go to Mully MacMuffin's for some sausage). I think that is different from the chase scene in that the PCs who have his number can stop the chase and go to MacMuffins before the villain gets there. I don't actually think this point counters or supports your position, i just wanted to clarify what exploder may have intended (exploder feel free to let me know if I misunderstood your position).

 

[Imaro]

A chase scene is inherently about who is faster or who can navigate better. A DM who declares the NPC has taken the perfect route has just cock-blocked 50% of the standard strategy.

No one claimed the NPC has taken the perfect route... No one claimed this has to be a chase scene... the PC's have the very real choice of not pursuing.

Of course this is my opinion. But I actually know how complicated routing is, and on this topic, it is unrealistic if every NPC has perfect routing. Of all chases you run, only a minority of them should involve the NPC truly having determined the best route (probably a prepared genius who planned on it).

No one claimed every NPC should know the perfect or most direct route.

Everybody else is realistically constrained by limits of their own knowledge of the area and the abstractness of the game map given that it was an imaginary construct. Even assuming the GM's perfect knowledge, common advice for NPCs is to play them as themselves with THEIR knowledge, not the GMs. Here's a challenge. Pull up Google Maps for your city. There's a world of difference on your options when you have Satellite mode turned on. How much info does your game map carry? How does that differ from what NPCs and PCs actually know?

You don't know the situation surrounding the why's of the NPC's knowledge concerning the city (He could have scouted an escape route beforehand...(nd no I don't think only genius level villains going into a situation where they are likely to be chased would be the only one's to plan ahead)... you are making assumnptions that are not present in the OP.

And this goes to what EW said about the 50' wall. A wall is an object. It is or is not 50 feet tall. A route is information. Knowledge and calculation. For which the game system has skills to determine if the character is aware of. The game system does not have rules to determine what objects appear where or their traits.

But the most direct route from point A to Point B either is or is not the most direct route. we are not speaking to what obstacles, challenges, etc. lie along said route, only that it is the most direct route through the city from point a to point b. As an example an expressway can be the most direct route somewhere and still be slower than another route due to traffic. That still doesn't change the fact that it is the most direct route.

Since a chase is about catching up, cutting off or reaching the end point, shortcut finding is part of the encounter challenge. To rule otherwise is unrealistic to the concept. Therefore, the possibility of a shortcut existing must exist. That might mean 2 skill checks to determine the best path for each party (and that the NPC does indeed figure out the better path). it might mean that the shortcut is available, IF your PC can cross the 50' wall that surrounds the palace.

IMO, to rule that there is no shorter route than "the most direct route" is not in anyway unrealistic to the concept of a chase scene.

Okay I have a question for you, what if the next player says he wants to find an even shorter route through the city and so on and so on. Is this realistic? I mean if we can't discount the possibility of a shorter route than the villain took... why can we discount the possibility of an even shorter route than the other player proposed... and if so then why not another and another? Do we arbitrarily let the idea work for one player but not others? Even in your example above you are now claiming there are only two paths that could be taken... but you also stated...

"Since a chase is about catching up, cutting off or reaching the end point, shortcut finding is part of the encounter challenge. To rule otherwise is unrealistic to the concept."

So when does the number of shortcuts that supercede a previous route become unrealistic?

As to the shortcut being unrealistic to the chase scene... there have been plenty of chase scenes in literature and movies where the knowledge of a secret shortcut does not factor in. What if you use athletics to run faster than the one you are pursuing... or endurance to keep up a faster pace than he can? What if you use acrobatics to dodge and flow through the crowd more easily to gain on him? Or how about Perception to keep him in your sights while pursuing and/or notice advantageous gaps in the crowds along the city streets... Streetwise or Bluff/Diplomacy to pretend he robbed you and get the city guards in on the chase to hinder him or force him onto another route? Use nature to sick a stray dog on him... and so on, none of these requires knowledge of a shorter route.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Again,my reading of exploder wizards comment is he is talking post chase destination (ie after the villain loses the pcs he will wander around a bit then go to Mully MacMuffin's for some sausage). I think that is different from the chase scene in that the PCs who have his number can stop the chase and go to MacMuffins before the villain gets there. I don't actually think this point counters or supports your position, i just wanted to clarify what exploder may have intended (exploder feel free to let me know if I misunderstood your position).

Yes. I was indeed referring to post immediate chase. If navigation and speed don't offer winning options then attempting to be a few steps ahead in the longer run might be the better play depending on circumstances.

 

[billd91]

IMO, to rule that there is no shorter route than "the most direct route" is not in anyway unrealistic to the concept of a chase scene.

Okay I have a question for you, what if the next player says he wants to find an even shorter route through the city and so on and so on. Is this realistic? I mean if we can't discount the possibility of a shorter route than the villain took... why can we discount the possibility of an even shorter route than the other player proposed... and if so then why not another and another? Do we arbitrarily let the idea work for one player but not others? Even in your example above you are now claiming there are only two paths that could be taken... but you also stated...

"Since a chase is about catching up, cutting off or reaching the end point, shortcut finding is part of the encounter challenge. To rule otherwise is unrealistic to the concept."

So when does the number of shortcuts that supercede a previous route become unrealistic?

As to the shortcut being unrealistic to the chase scene... there have been plenty of chase scenes in literature and movies where the knowledge of a secret shortcut does not factor in. What if you use athletics to run faster than the one you are pursuing... or endurance to keep up a faster pace than he can? What if you use acrobatics to dodge and flow through the crowd more easily to gain on him? Or how about Perception to keep him in your sights while pursuing and/or notice advantageous gaps in the crowds along the city streets... Streetwise or Bluff/Diplomacy to pretend he robbed you and get the city guards in on the chase to hinder him or force him onto another route? Use nature to sick a stray dog on him... and so on, none of these requires knowledge of a shorter route.

I think we've come to the point where you're arguing past Janx or are caught in some kind of argument whirlpool from which you cannot escape. I don't think there's anything Janx has been saying that really contradicts any of the options here about other skill checks being relevant to a chase scene (should the PCs elect to participate in one).

But to tie into Janx's advice earlier, if you're going to have a chase scene, why decide, right off the bat, that the NPC being chased is taking the best route from A to B and that the PCs couldn't use their knowledge skills to improve on it? Holding that option open gives the PCs one more tool in their kit to intercept their quarry, should they be creative enough to think of it. There may be circumstances in which I might say that no shortcut or other alternative route is available, but I'd be inclined to believe in Janx's advice and I'd make those a small minority.