Glass jaw of PC defenses

[theNater]

Actually, that was one of my points from the original post. Not only does it become a virtual auto-hit by targeting fort. The attack against the weak defense is also the one that hits like a freight train.

It may be per encounter, but how many times do you need to hit a PC with a power like that?

A bodak reaver's fort attack only needs to hit once, but it needs to hit an appropriately softened target if it's going to hit like a freight train. And for the bodak to soften the target up, it needs to hit AC first.

The Tarrasque, on the other hand, needs to hit a 30th level wizard with 10 con 4 times with his fort attack. Lucky for the Tarrasque it's a recharge, rather than an encounter.

How crippling do those non-AC attack get? Do the big ones all require pre-hitting, or is it just the bodak?

 

[Runestar]

Orcus's touch of death is +33 vs fort. So against a PC who dumped con (like a rogue or wizard), That is an instant KO. Same for necrotic burst, though the ramifications are less severe (just a puny 2d12+12, or 25 damage on average).

An ancient red dragon's frightful presence is +35 vs will, so fighters who have little reason to pump wis (and brutal scoundrel rogues) can count on always being stunned. Ditto for its breath weapon (+35 vs reflex) against foes with crappy reflex defenses.

So yeah, I leave it to you to arrive at your own conclusions.

 

[bganon]

So... the toughest, most iconic monsters in the game can reliably smack a PC very hard.

That is, presuming they're able to specifically target the PC's weakest defense and assuming that the PC (or one of the PC's allies) hasn't done any preparation and doesn't just whip out one of their 17+ powers and negate the whole attack?

I think I'm not desperate to "fix" that.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Runestar, why is a Fighter dumping Wisdom? It's the class's secondary ability, since it gives a lot of modifiers and bonuses to various powers and features. Sure, it may not be his favorite weapon's secondary ability but it's still worth investing in.

theNater, why in all that is Gamey did you make a character that had an 8 Con at level 1? You can't even start with an 8 using the default array. Shouldn't you expect a level 21+ character to have at least a 12 in any given ability?

 

[keterys]

You can also take a +2 to Fort, Ref, and/or Will starting in Paragon. That should help make up some of the difference. You'll see a spread of ~4 initially that widens to ~8 eventually between a defense based on an increasing score and one not increasing.

Just one reason not to put _all_ of your points into the same two ability scores, I suppose.

 

[Runestar]

Runestar, why is a Fighter dumping Wisdom? It's the class's secondary ability, since it gives a lot of modifiers and bonuses to various powers and features. Sure, it may not be his favorite weapon's secondary ability but it's still worth investing in.

It is a hypothetical scenario, since few PCs have the resources, or the incentive to boost the 3 relevant defense-boosting stats evenly. Typically, you will just focus on 2 key stats vital to your career, and emphasize boosting those every 4 lvs. It doesn't have to be wis, my point is that most PCs will typically have 2 great defenses and 1 crap one, which may negate the advantages of having 2 good defenses. Nor is it particularly efficient to sink precious stat points into a stat which will see little/no use just for the sake of a few points of defense. For example, a rogue who did not go artful dodger has no reason to pump cha, and they normally already dump wis.

For example, a orb-wizard who pumps int and wis is neglecting con, and will thus have a sub-par fort defense. A bugbear brutal scoundrel rogue who focuses on str/dex will likely eschew his mental stats, meaning a low will defense. If a fighter pumps wis and str (and dumps dex because he wears heavy armour), then he will probably have a crap reflex defense.

 

[theNater]

theNater, why in all that is Gamey did you make a character that had an 8 Con at level 1? You can't even start with an 8 using the default array. Shouldn't you expect a level 21+ character to have at least a 12 in any given ability?

I was going for minimum hit points. He can start with an 8 con in point buy. It may not be likely, but it is possible.

The result is that, on average, it will take at least 4 hits for the Tarrasque to drop somebody with that power.

 

[Tony Vargas]

AC is supposed to run 2 or 3 points higher, because of the weapon proficiency bonus. While monsters don't have that bonus, exactly, thier vs AC attacks tend to have correspondingly higher bonuses, FWIW.

If you happen to boost 2 stats exclusively, you will create a significant 'blind spot' in your defenses. If you can split your stat boosts between two secondary stats that add to different saves, you get +5 vs +8 for a primary stat, if you start 'em both odd, you only fall 1 behind in those defenses compared to AC - from the stat boost.

MW Armor can be compensated for with the def-boost feats of Paragon level (actually puts you ahead until Epic).

Your classes bonuses also make a difference. Fighters are still screwed, getting a +2 in the one save they have to boost the most with a stat. Wizards have it kinda nice, with little need to boost a WILL stat (with which they get a +2), and a primary that adds to REF. Staff Wizards who pump INT & CON should have remarkably good non-AC defenses (and can have pretty good AC, too).

Then there's Shields, which can boost your REF up to 3 with specialization. And TWD gives a +1 REF.

WILL is likely to be pretty low for any character that doesn't have a +2 from his class or a primary stat that adds to it.

Finally, Humans get that +1 to all non-AC defenses, and some other races get a bonus to one of them.

 

[Runestar]

AC is supposed to run 2 or 3 points higher

More like 10 points higher. A PC should have no problems getting his AC to almost +50.

Lets take a look at what happens at lv30, with a +6 cloak.

If we assume a PC chooses a race with +2 to both his key stats, starts with base16, and goes demigod, he ends up with 28 in both stats at lv30, and say a 12-14 in the 3rd stat. So his defenses are +40/+40/+32. If you want, you can add another +2 with the appropriate defense-boosting feat.

A typical lv30 foe has an attack roll of +33, meaning that he will never miss vs your weakest defense, and will hit your strongest defenses on a 10 or more (~ 50-55% chance of success).

Conversely, if you focused on all 3 stats evenly, you tend to end up with a defense spread of ~ +37/+37/+37. So the enemy still ends up hitting on a roll of 5 or more, not factoring in combat advantage.

Seems like you are still screwed either way. Focus on all 3 defenses evenly, and the foe will still be able to reliably overcome them all. Focus on 2 defenses at the expense of the 3rd, and you may or may not be any better off.

I suppose that it might be expected. Since foes only get to make 1 attack/round, I suppose it is in their best interests to want to hit as often as possible. Though this seems to defeat the purpose of even bothering to boost your defenses, if the foes are still going to hit regardless of your best efforts.

Is there anything amiss with my observation? The designers sure were not joking when they said that the +X items were crucial to your PC's survival...

 

[theNater]

More like 10 points higher. A PC should have no problems getting his AC to almost +50.

I'm having trouble getting your +50. I get +45 featless in godplate(10 base, 15 level, 14 armor, 6 enhancement) and +46 featless in hide(10 base, 15 level, 5 armor, 10 ability, 6 enhancement). Those are top-of-the line. I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume that wizards and rogues will have the str and con(and feats) for hide, warlocks will maximize their int, or that wisdom clerics, two-weapon rangers, and warlords will be ready to take plate. Let's say 46 is "average", given the availablility of shields and AC-boosting feats.

If we assume a PC chooses a race with +2 to both his key stats, starts with base16, and goes demigod, he ends up with 28 in both stats at lv30, and say a 12-14 in the 3rd stat. So his defenses are +40/+40/+32. If you want, you can add another +2 with the appropriate defense-boosting feat.

My calculations suggest this doesn't include class bonus, which every character has. So we're actually looking at 42/40/32, 40/40/34, 41/41/32, or 41/40/33. So, difference of 4-6 vs AC for the high ones, and well, okay, lots for the low ones.

A typical lv30 foe has an attack roll of +33, meaning that he will never miss vs your weakest defense, and will hit your strongest defenses on a 10 or more (~ 50-55% chance of success).

About a 50% chance of success is a good thing, means that balance is about where it should be. Never misses on the weak defense is a bit odd, but we'll get to that in a minute.

Conversely, if you focused on all 3 stats evenly, you tend to end up with a defense spread of ~ +37/+37/+37. So the enemy still ends up hitting on a roll of 5 or more, not factoring in combat advantage.

Again, class bonus makes this a little less awful, but it's still more awful than focused.

Seems like you are still screwed either way. Focus on all 3 defenses evenly, and the foe will still be able to reliably overcome them all. Focus on 2 defenses at the expense of the 3rd, and you may or may not be any better off.

See, this is where I worry. With the spread, a character is in trouble if the monster attacks any non-AC defense. But if we drop one, the character is only in trouble if the enemy can target that defense, on that character, at-will.

The Tarrasque can target reflex at-will for 1d12+16 and prone, and fort on a recharge for 3d12+16, push, and prone. Neither of these is nightmare scenario, even if they are auto-hits.

An ancient red dragon can target reflex with a number of damage powers, each of which does less than 60 points of damage, although one(a recharge power) attaches 15 ongoing fire damage. The dragon can target will with an encounter power for a one-round stun, and fortitude as a secondary attack on one of the reflex attacks(so it has to beat at least one good defense). None of these are nightmare scenario on auto-hits.

Orcus has two attacks that target fortitude, both recharge powers. One does 2d12+12 damage, the other reduces the target's hit points to 0. That last one is pretty rough, but it requires Orcus to target, with a melee attack, a character with low fort defense. Many such characters will be going to great lengths to avoid being in melee range of Orcus, and being hit with that, while painful, is not game-ending for 30th level characters. With epic destiny powers and features, they are almost certainly still in the game.

So where exactly is the nightmare scenario? What is the monster power that breaks the game when it auto-hits? I'm not seeing it.

I suppose that it might be expected. Since foes only get to make 1 attack/round, I suppose it is in their best interests to want to hit as often as possible. Though this seems to defeat the purpose of even bothering to boost your defenses, if the foes are still going to hit regardless of your best efforts.

The foes are only going to hit sometimes when they're taking on your best efforts. They get auto-hits if they target your worst efforts. And, except in highly unusual parties, different characters will have different weaknesses, so only some characters are free targets to any given power. The rest of the party is ready to go about business as usual.

Is there anything amiss with my observation? The designers sure were not joking when they said that the +X items were crucial to your PC's survival...

Yup, you do have to keep some of your defenses up. If the monsters can auto-hit with all of their attacks, the PCs are in serious trouble.