GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?

Except that the problem isn't that Statblock B is remotely bad.

The real problem seems to be an inability to convince you that we're not looking at the underlying design philosophy behind both the stat blocks and the combat-happy WotC modules.

I'm saying that you have a stuffy nose and a nasty cough because you have the flu. You're saying, "I don't see how a stuffy nose could possibly be giving me a nasty cough!"

But since you want to talk about stat blocks...

And most monsters do last five rounds or fewer and don't do anything.

Ignoring the flawed premise that monsters never do anything in the game outside of combat, there are still at least three flaws in Noonan's logic:

(1) It assumes tactical inflexibility. It assumes that the monster should always do the exact same thing no matter what the PCs do. By saying "they'll only be around for 5 rounds so they should only have 5 rounds worth of stuff to do", you are concluding that they should never have multiple options (which would allow them to respond to a variety of situations).

(2) It assumes monsters will never be re-used. Because if they were going to be re-used, it might be valuable to have some variety between those encounters.

(3) It assumes that multiple versions of the same monster will never appear in the same combat. Monsters only last 5 rounds and nothing they do outside of those 5 rounds matters? Even if we accept the premise, if we have an encounter with 5 of those monsters at the same time and each of them survives an average of 5 rounds, then that stat block actually needs to fill up 25 rounds worth of actions.

There are lots of reasons why combat in 4th Edition has gotten the "grind" level, but one of the problems are the shallow, bland, inflexible stat blocks.

When and where, exactly, were we told this?

Seriously? No offense, but you might want to try reading the thread before posting to it. Start with Post #1. The quote in question is literally the entire basis for the thread.

I think the Delve Format might be to blame. It has the advantage of allowing the DM to run each encounter very easily, without the need to flip pages to look at the map, look up monster stats in the MM and monster abilities in the PHB. But the drawback is there's a lot less space for background, setting, NPC motivation and personality, etc.

It's not just an issue of space: The Delve Format (and, to a large extent, the entire design of 4th Edition) is about the "perfectly balanced tactical encounter".

This quest for "perfect balance" inherently limits interactivity and minimizes player impact on a strategic level.

Those same designers who said "monsters are good for 5 rounds of combat and nothing more" are the same designers working on WotC's modules.
Look, that's a complete misrepresentation of the designers' views.

What Noonan said: "Until the moment they interact with the PCs, they’re in a state of stasis. And five rounds later, they’re done."

I'm not sure what you think is being misrepresented here. The NPCs don't do anything until the PCs see them, as soon as the PCs see them combat will start, and "five rounds later, they're done".

Look, ProfessorCirno gave an example of an enemy whose 3.5 statblock revealed all sorts of character information. I commented that pretty much everything relevant found in the 3.5 statblock would also be in the 4E version. You can't just dismiss that as theoretical.

I just got done telling you that the problem is the underlying design premise that NPCs don't do anything outside of combat, but you're still trying to distract the issue by talking about stat block methodology.

I don't imagine that is the case for everyone, but the claim that 4E fundamentally forbids this - or prevents it - simply isn't true.

It's probably a good thing that nobody is making that claim. Lemme know when you want to stop beating that pack of strawmen to death and have an actual conversation.
 

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Ignoring the flawed premise that monsters never do anything in the game outside of combat, there are still at least three flaws in Noonan's logic:

Personally I think you're reading/thinking about the statement incorrectly.

I think you seem to be reading it from the standpoint that they designed the game to make the statement true... whereas I feel they designed the game based around an already truthful statement. (if that makes sense.)

(1) It assumes tactical inflexibility. It assumes that the monster should always do the exact same thing no matter what the PCs do. By saying "they'll only be around for 5 rounds so they should only have 5 rounds worth of stuff to do", you are concluding that they should never have multiple options (which would allow them to respond to a variety of situations).

Instead I think the real statement is saying- on average, no matter how many options it has, the monster only ever stays around for 5 rounds. (And this is assuming a "perfect fight" where the PCs and monsters do things which would be the best tactics.

So, assuming this, we don't need more then 5 rounds of options, because they just won't be used. It's wasted space that just causes confusion.

We can take out the extra options for each individual monster, and make it easier to work with because of the next part:

(2) It assumes monsters will never be re-used. Because if they were going to be re-used, it might be valuable to have some variety between those encounters.

This ignores the fact that monsters in 4e, unlike 3e aren't designed to be the "typical" of the species. They're designed more to be one type of a whole. So the next time you see X monster it probably won't be the same, because the DM is using another one of many versions of X monster. (You notice this even more in the monsters that show up frequently like orcs and goblins and stuff...)

So rather then make one monster with lots of stuff in the stat block to meet various uses and ideas, you make a variation of the monster for those different demands.

(3) It assumes that multiple versions of the same monster will never appear in the same combat. Monsters only last 5 rounds and nothing they do outside of those 5 rounds matters? Even if we accept the premise, if we have an encounter with 5 of those monsters at the same time and each of them survives an average of 5 rounds, then that stat block actually needs to fill up 25 rounds worth of actions.

I don't get your math. 5 monsters at the same time that last 5 rounds is still only 5 rounds.. unless each one is popping out 1 at a time from the monster vendomatic.


There are lots of reasons why combat in 4th Edition has gotten the "grind" level, but one of the problems are the shallow, bland, inflexible stat blocks.

Well all are entitled to an opinion... I think the stat blocks are extremely flexible, in that swaping out powers is pretty simple. (Which makes making different monsters unique quick and easy.)

To each his own though!
 

Let's say the four-times approach doubles the writing time involved in the module, and let's say the writing time makes up 50% of the module's cost, with the rest being devoted to printing costs, warehousing, shipping and distribution, et cetera. So that's a total increase of 50% in the cost of the module. I can live with that.

Color me... skeptical that your position is held by enough of the public to make the idea fly.

There's one thing that seems to be fairly common about gamers - we are stingy. We complain about the price of rulebooks. We complain about the price of pdfs. You're expecting that they can charge more for a new presentation, three quarters of which any particular group won't use?

Remember, for any given encounter, it is probably getting played once, and that's it. The party will find one way through it. Three of your four are now wasted. And the person who bought this adventure is sitting there thinking, "Why did I pay more, when I didn't use most of the extra?"

I think we are forgetting that the GM is there, in part, to adjudicate that which isn't expressed in the given material - to give the game greater flexibility. We (gamers and GMs, broadly) buy materials so that we don't have to do everything ourselves, but that's not the same as having the adventure do everything for us. At some point, the adventure's given us enough to work with, and we can carry it from there, even if the players step outside what the material describes. Material beyond that point is gives us diminished returns on our investment, so we won't pay much for it.
 

(1) It assumes tactical inflexibility. It assumes that the monster should always do the exact same thing no matter what the PCs do. By saying "they'll only be around for 5 rounds so they should only have 5 rounds worth of stuff to do", you are concluding that they should never have multiple options (which would allow them to respond to a variety of situations).

I don't know about that. Could you be able to give some examples? Stat blocks might only have a few rounds worth of powers, but they do include the creature's ability modifiers, relevant skill, perception abilities and special senses, and movement capabilities. I would think that pretty much everything you need to respond to the various possible scenarios outside of combat - chase scenes, negotiations, trying to sneak past enemies, etc.

if you are talking about their ability to respond tactically in combat, I think that comes down to how the DM plays them. I certainly don't want each monster to have a seperate stat block for dealing with PCs using hit-and-run tactics vs direct combat - I think the DMs ability to use their movement and positioning, ranged attacks vs melee attacks, and various skills should be enough to play them differently in different scenarios.

(2) It assumes monsters will never be re-used. Because if they were going to be re-used, it might be valuable to have some variety between those encounters.

I really haven't had a problem with a lack of variety amongst enemies in 4E. I can see it being a problem if a DM just runs the same monsters against PCs in combat after combat, but with the options out there, the ability to customize monsters, and the opportunity to always fall back on stunts, terrain attacks, and even just grabs and the like... I think there is plenty of room to keep things interesting.

In my experience, at least, 4E provides far more variety in the encounters with far less work for the DM to make it happen. A dungeon filled with different types of kobolds is a lot more exciting than one filled with 50 kobold level 1 warriors.

(3) It assumes that multiple versions of the same monster will never appear in the same combat. Monsters only last 5 rounds and nothing they do outside of those 5 rounds matters? Even if we accept the premise, if we have an encounter with 5 of those monsters at the same time and each of them survives an average of 5 rounds, then that stat block actually needs to fill up 25 rounds worth of actions.

There are lots of reasons why combat in 4th Edition has gotten the "grind" level, but one of the problems are the shallow, bland, inflexible stat blocks.

Again, I see 4E stat blocks as potentially a lot more exciting than some have been in other editions. In my experience, monsters in 3rd Edition either tended to have issues, like you say, with inflexibility (in that their typically approach was to spend every round full-attacking), or they tended to have lots of complex spell-like abilities and similar options.

And the first type tended to be the ones you fought in groups.

Now, its true that this issue isn't entirely absent in 4E. If you have a fight with 5 Orc Raiders, it is likely going to come down to the same running around and charging throughout the fight.

Of course, 4E tries to actively discourage that sort of encounter design. And as soon as you've gotten to 2 or 3 different types of monsters in the fight - Orc Raiders, Drudges, and an Eye of Gruumsh - things start to get more interesting.

I agree that I don't like to see a stat block with only 1 or 2 attack options. It does make a monster dull. But that seems to have been more an issue with a handful of MM1 monsters than an overall goal - I see a lot more who have enough abilities to have options during the combat, though by the end of the fight PCs have generally gotten to see most of what the enemy can do.

Will all monsters be able to tactically respond to different approaches by the players? Of course not - and the same holds true in every edition. But some monsters certainly can. The vast majority of monster stat blocks, in my opinion, don't fit the claim of "shallow, bland, inflexible."

What Noonan said: "Until the moment they interact with the PCs, they’re in a state of stasis. And five rounds later, they’re done."

I'm not sure what you think is being misrepresented here. The NPCs don't do anything until the PCs see them, as soon as the PCs see them combat will start, and "five rounds later, they're done".

It's a pretty damning quote. But I think it is indeed being misrepresented as an absolute.

I don't think he is saying that monsters cannot be interacted with outside of combat. The vast majority of the time, yes, combat is the default interaction - and that 95% of the time is what we need the stats for.

The article with that very quote even goes into the fact that part of the goal is to help focus on the key elements of the creatures in question, that "the play experience at the table is enhanced if the monster entry provides a few cogent details of culture to get the DM pointed in the right direction, then steps back and lets the table run off wherever it likes."

That seems explicitly counter to the idea that a monster's context is isolated only to its combat relevance.

More than that, let's look at a bit more of the quote:

"Giving a monster detect thoughts or telekinesis, for example, makes us feel like those monsters are magically in the minds of their minions and are making objects float across the room all the time. But they aren’t! Until the moment they interact with the PCs, they’re in a state of stasis. And five rounds later, they’re done."

He isn't saying that the monster should not have those abilities. The mind flayer mastermind can still be keeping his minions in thrall and plundering their minds all he wants out of combat. If the DM wants the creepy psionic monster to be in mental control of his minions, he just gets to decide that is the case - he does not need to know the actual mechanics of how these NPCs interact. He can simply take the natural flavor of the monster and extend it as desired to NPC interactions. Those mechanics that aren't important for interaction with the PCs aren't needed - they just distract from what actual options are on the table.

Now, here is where I see the heart of the actual debate - what abilities qualify as important against the PCs? Detect Thoughts wasn't particularly relevant in combat, given it took several round to start picking up useful info. On the other hand, it does give the mastermind a potential edge out of combat against the PCs, which can have interesting ramifications - though its use could also be detected and expose the mastermind's threat.

Of course, just giving the monster Telepathy in 4E goes a good distance towards preserving the flavor, without needing to get into how much it can probe the mind of PCs out of combat. The more extreme 4E approach might be to simply have the DM decide how much information it can glean using its mental powers out of combat. Many might object to this as arbitrary - on the other hand, Detect Thoughts already had issues with that, since isn't the DM the one who has to decide what 'surface thoughts' the PCs might reveal anyway?

These corner cases are where I think the real disagreement lies. But I think it is missing the point to try and drag the argument down to the core principles of 4E based on a single quote by one designer, taken out of context.

You are saying the problem is that there is a flawed premise in 4E that monsters don't exist outside of combat. That they exist solely to be killed over the course of 5 rounds, and that as long as this premise exists, people will have an issue with stat blocks.

I don't agree that this is a premise in 4E. I don't think any designer would agree with your interpretation of Noonan's words. And I think focusing on them distracts from the real discussion - where to draw the line on what abilities are worth preserving, and which should fall into the realm of off-screen ability.
 

Seriously? No offense, but you might want to try reading the thread before posting to it. Start with Post #1. The quote in question is literally the entire basis for the thread.
I think Christopher Robin's point is that Noonan's quote was with regards to 3e (Monster Manual 5), not, as innerdude says, 4e.

For Monster Manual V, we wanted to create really focused monsters. We told our designers: “Make us monsters that deliver on the promise of one really memorable encounter.” Then we handed the developers some pruning shears, and said: “Trim anything that doesn’t deliver a really memorable encounter.”

Our underlying reason was pretty simple: We wanted our presentation of monsters to reflect how they’re actually used in D&D gameplay. A typical monster has a lifespan of five rounds. That means it basically does five things, ever, period, the end. (Forgive me if that seems like a totally obvious insight.)

Too often, we designers want to give our intelligent, high-level monsters a bunch of spell-like abilities—if not a bunch of actual spellcaster levels. Giving a monster detect thoughts or telekinesis, for example, makes us feel like those monsters are magically in the minds of their minions and are making objects float across the room all the time. But they aren’t! Until the moment they interact with the PCs, they’re in a state of stasis. And five rounds later, they’re done.
 
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Personally I think you're reading/thinking about the statement incorrectly.

I think you seem to be reading it from the standpoint that they designed the game to make the statement true... whereas I feel they designed the game based around an already truthful statement. (if that makes sense.)



Instead I think the real statement is saying- on average, no matter how many options it has, the monster only ever stays around for 5 rounds. (And this is assuming a "perfect fight" where the PCs and monsters do things which would be the best tactics.

So, assuming this, we don't need more then 5 rounds of options, because they just won't be used. It's wasted space that just causes confusion.

I think what you're doing here is show us how Noonan's statement leads to 4e's design making his statement true. If your analysis indicates that the NPC lives an average of 5 rounds and you then give it no more than 5 options, you really are making Noonan's statement into the truth. Before, some of these NPCs had a dozen or more options. The fact that they got to pick 5 of them to use before dying doesn't change the fact that they had a broader set to choose from. Cutting those down to 5 in the interest of getting rid of "extra" stuff means cutting down the NPC's flexibility and constrains its scope.

This ignores the fact that monsters in 4e, unlike 3e aren't designed to be the "typical" of the species. They're designed more to be one type of a whole. So the next time you see X monster it probably won't be the same, because the DM is using another one of many versions of X monster. (You notice this even more in the monsters that show up frequently like orcs and goblins and stuff...)

So rather then make one monster with lots of stuff in the stat block to meet various uses and ideas, you make a variation of the monster for those different demands.

Yes, but now NPC figure #1 has a limited scope. The stat block determines how he will be used before even encountering the PCs and their approach to the impending meeting. I think it's great that some 4e creatures (particularly humanoids) have specialties. Humanoids can use them well and it fits well with different gear they may be kitted out with.
But compare specialists with 3e multi-purposers like a lot of the demons and devils or even a rival adventurer kitted out with multiple interesting items and tactical choices. The specialist's limited scope severly hampers flexibility as the encounter unfolds but the multi-purpose NPCs can adjust to have something interesting and effective to do even if the encounter moves away from their primary strengths.
I compare this effect to hyperspecialized PCs in 3e who are at their best with a limited tactical suite (the spiked chain tripper, for example) but who is completely flumoxed by a flying opponent because they didn't have the foresight to pack a bow. I believe games suffered because players chose to do this sort of thing, got frustrated, and complained. I don't think the game's better because it now arbitrarily extends to more NPCs as well.
 

Yeah....So long as you ignore the companies that prove it can fly, including Paizo right now, and both Goodman Games and Necromancer for 3e, there is no reason to believe it would work. :lol:

Have we established that this is the one fundamental difference between Paizo and WotC adventures? Does Paizo charge 50% more for their products? I honestly don't know the answer to these questions - I'm genuinely curious if that is an actual mirror for the specific example Umbran was discussing.

I think his point was that the proposal to take existing WotC adventures and provide multiple approaches for every encounter, along with a 50% increase in price, would probably not win over more customers than it would use.
 

Have we established that this is the one fundamental difference between Paizo and WotC adventures? Does Paizo charge 50% more for their products? I honestly don't know the answer to these questions - I'm genuinely curious if that is an actual mirror for the specific example Umbran was discussing.

I think his point was that the proposal to take existing WotC adventures and provide multiple approaches for every encounter, along with a 50% increase in price, would probably not win over more customers than it would use.

Paizo APs (96 pages) are $20 minus whatever discounts you might get.
Paizo Modules (32 pages) are $14 minus whatever discounts you might have.

Thats for print. They are all available in PDF for less and subscribers get the PDF free.

The point I think Mr. Crowking was trying to make was that Paizo provides more for less and does so successfully, giving DMs adventures that cater to a variety of playstyles. They are far more than hack and slash. The storys are engaging and the NPCs are memorable. The Adventure Paths, in my opinion, are some of the best role-playing buys I've ever made. At their worst their better then most other things I've bought and at their best they are stellar.
 

I think what you're doing here is show us how Noonan's statement leads to 4e's design making his statement true. If your analysis indicates that the NPC lives an average of 5 rounds and you then give it no more than 5 options, you really are making Noonan's statement into the truth.

Maybe, but I see it as Chicken vrs egg in that it doesn't really matter, as in the end, it only needed those 5 rounds worth of options. (And that doesn't mean 5 options.) Especially if the rest just confused the situation and made using it effectively more of a hassle.

You're not designing it to last 5 rounds- that was already happening... You're just making it easier to work with in those 5 rounds.

True, you're not giving it more rounds to work with- but that's a different problem if it's a problem for you (it's not for me.)


Before, some of these NPCs had a dozen or more options. The fact that they got to pick 5 of them to use before dying doesn't change the fact that they had a broader set to choose from. Cutting those down to 5 in the interest of getting rid of "extra" stuff means cutting down the NPC's flexibility and constrains its scope.

Sure, but thats why I was saying before, adding more options doesn't always make it "better." It just makes it, more confusing. Especially if those options aren't always useful to the situation at hand.


Yes, but now NPC figure #1 has a limited scope. The stat block determines how he will be used before even encountering the PCs and their approach to the impending meeting.

Well see I agree and disagree. I think the stat block SHOULD have a limited scope. And it's not the stat block that makes the determination, but you determining to use said stat block.

IE if I think Human Noble number 223 should be a credible combat threat, I give him a combat stat block. If not, I put some notes about how he CAN interact with PCs. What stuff he has, what stuff he knows, etc... If both, I put both.

I just don't like jumbling stat blocks together.


I think it's great that some 4e creatures (particularly humanoids) have specialties. Humanoids can use them well and it fits well with different gear they may be kitted out with.
But compare specialists with 3e multi-purposers like a lot of the demons and devils or even a rival adventurer kitted out with multiple interesting items and tactical choices. The specialist's limited scope severly hampers flexibility as the encounter unfolds but the multi-purpose NPCs can adjust to have something interesting and effective to do even if the encounter moves away from their primary strengths.
I compare this effect to hyperspecialized PCs in 3e who are at their best with a limited tactical suite (the spiked chain tripper, for example) but who is completely flumoxed by a flying opponent because they didn't have the foresight to pack a bow. I believe games suffered because players chose to do this sort of thing, got frustrated, and complained. I don't think the game's better because it now arbitrarily extends to more NPCs as well.

I guess I haven't seen it to be as big an issue as you seem to feel it is in my games? Maybe you're encountering it, but I'm not.

In fact, the games I've run have been a lot smoother then my 3e games ever were. Maybe the game just fits ME better. :)
 

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