D&D General GMing and "Player Skill"

[Umbran]

I think a major issue we face when discussing "skilled play" is simple: skill at what, exactly?

It won't be the same from game to game, or playstyle to playstyle. The play skills that will get me through the Tomb of Horrors are not the play skills that will get me through a boffer-style live-action game.

Much of the assertion that newer game designs prevent skilled play are mistaken - they just call for play using different skills

 

[payn]

I think a major issue we face when discussing "skilled play" is simple: skill at what, exactly?

It won't be the same from game to game, or playstyle to playstyle. The play skills that will get me through the Tomb of Horrors are not the play skills that will get me through a boffer-style live-action game.

It's not about the skills in particular, its the focus of the challenge of the game. In this case, focusing on challenging the player, not the character to solve puzzles, traps, survival sim problems. That could manifest in any type of action game to game, and if its not a main focus of said game, then its not likely a skill play style.

Much of the assertion that newer game designs prevent skilled play are mistaken - they just call for play using different skills

Right, its more about the challenges of yesteryear not being relevant today. Like, the complaints about darkness not being enough of an imposition, or PCs being too hard to kill. The game has made those things less of a challenge so if you want to use them, the GM has to get a lot more clever about it. Not to mention a lot of other items competing for attention such as plots and more focus on the social pillar.

 

[Umbran]

It's not about the skills in particular, its the focus of the challenge of the game. In this case, focusing on challenging the player, not the character to solve puzzles, traps, survival sim problems.

But when the challenge of the game isn't puzzles, traps, and survival sim problems, it is inappropriate to say that the game doesn't have challenges or involve skilled play.

If the challenge of the game is not your (generic, not payn, personally) preferred challenge, that doesn't mean there is no challenge.

I think much too little effort is spent on understanding the challenges of different playstyles before judgement is cast.

 

[payn]

But when the challenge of the game isn't puzzles, traps, and survival sim problems, it is inappropriate to say that the game doesn't have challenges or involve skilled play.

If the challenge of the game is not your (generic, not payn, personally) preferred challenge, that doesn't mean there is no challenge.

Yes, ive mentioned that the inference of not skill play focus isnt no skill involvement at all. Its just not the sole focus of the playstyle. Its like suggesting that narrative games focus on the narrative and other games dont have any narrative because they are not titled narrative games. That doesnt typically happen becasue narrative focused players dont usually make that claim. Some folks that do prefer skill play, often disparage games that don't focus on it as lacking any skill. That behavior is what im trying to separate from the concept itself.

 

[Umbran]

Right, its more about the challenges of yesteryear not being relevant today. ...

Not to mention a lot of other items competing for attention such as plots and more focus on the social pillar.

Now, if we recognize that social conflicts present play challenges, and plots present challenge, then we break out of the trap of thinking that sim and combat are the only places we find skilled play.

 

[payn]

Now, if we recognize that social conflicts present play challenges, and plots present challenge, then we break out of the trap of thinking that sim and combat are the only places we find skilled play.

Sure, as long as the puzzle challenge for the player and not the character remains at the fore front. Often times, its no longer the case in neo-trad games which is the cause of friction. For example, a narrative game player might join a skill play group and be disappointed. Not because the game contains no narrative at all, but because it isnt the focus of the playstyle.

 

[Umbran]

Yes, ive mentioned that the inference of not skill play focus isnt no skill involvement at all. Its just not the sole focus of the playstyle.

Sorry, I am breaking things into smaller bits for posting from a phone.

This contains the issue is am actually talking about, though. You are still putting to the forefront the idea of "not skilled play focused" before forefronting the idea that sim and puzzles aren't the only skills around.

Meaning: for example heavily narrative play can be, and probably is, heavily skill focused, just with different player skills.

You have to actually establish that a game isn't skill-focused separately from determining if it is narrative-focused. You cannot assume narrative = not-skilled.

 

[payn]

Sorry, I am breaking things into smaller bits for posting from a phone.

This contains the issue is am actually talking about, though. You are still putting to the forefront the idea of "not skilled play focused" before forefronting the idea that sim and puzzles aren't the only skills around.

Meaning: for example heavily narrative play can be, and probably is, heavily skill focused, just with different player skills.

You have to actually establish that a game isn't skill-focused separately from determining if it is narrative-focused. You cannot assume narrative = not-skilled.

Right, like you cannot assume skill play is not narrative. It's about where the focus, the purpose, of the game is. Not to indicate any other style lacks completely skills or narrative.

 

[Reynard]

Isn't tactical acumen "player skill"?

 

[Charlaquin]

Spinning this out of the 6E thread because, well it isn't about 6E.

Anyway -- much is often made of "player skill" and "OSR" and how modern games are just button mashing. I don't really buy this as a generational divide: I think people in the 70s could rely on their character sheets, and I think people now can get creative.

What I do think is that the degree to which a game (and by game, I mean the thing happening at a particular table, not an edition) can be about "player skill" is entirely a function of the GM's willingness to present his "puzzles" in good faith. unfortunately, in my experience, what you actually get more often than not is a GM-May-I? situation in which the GM wants the players to read his mind and speak the precise words, rather than coming up with a novel solution.

What are your thoughts on "player skill" based games and the GMs that run them? How do you do it well, regardless of whether the rules are OSR or modern? What system tools can actually make it more fun and better? How do you GM this kind of game without falling in to the trap of asking your players to read your mind?

I think “player skill” as a jargon term has accumulated too much baggage to lead to productive discussion. It’s a lot like “dissociated mechanics” or even my pet “goal and approach.” There’s a valuable concept that the jargon term expresses, but people have very strong feelings about the jargon term that end up distracting from any useful discussion about the concept.

How I’ve recently started thinking about the fundamental ideas here is that players decide, characters act. The success or failure of an action (assuming that both are reasonable possibilities) should be determined by the rules governing the character and their capabilities. But, the character has no ability to make decisions about what actions to perform when; that has to be on the player. The player makes choices and declares actions, then the DM uses their judgment to decide what rules (if any) are most appropriate to use to determine the action’s results, relying on the character’s statistics and possibly the roll of a die as factors influencing that determination.

When people talk about “skilled play” positively, they are usually advocating for leaning more into the “player decides” aspect of the above play pattern. When people talk about it negatively, they are usually hilighting the information gap between the player and their character, that can make it difficult for the player to make meaningful decisions, and/or common DMing pitfalls related to the player decision points, such as expecting an unreasonable degree of specificity in the player’s action declarations.