Gnolls and Gestalt - help!

[Herobizkit]

I am trying to build a Gnoll Barbarian//Bard 2. I am confusing myself because it is early in the A.M. and I *should* be concentrating on my job instead of D&D.

* A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
* A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.

If I am reading this correctly:
For my first two levels (and assuming an Int score of 10), I would have 10 skill points, or 5 skill points per Gnoll level; these points would likely go into Listen and Spot (being the only class skills for Gnolls).

As a Gestalt character, which is the "more correct" build:
a) For each Humanoid level, I can Gestalt a second class (ie Gnoll//Barbarian or Gnoll//Bard)?
b) The Gnoll "class" covers both sides of the Gestalt (ie Gnoll//Gnoll) before I take class levels?

Option "A" seems like more paperwork, but more desirable; I would build 1 level of Gnoll//Barbarian and one of Gnoll//Bard and have a level 2 character (with an ECL of 3).

Option "B" seems like less work, except that to build my Barbarian//Bard 2, I would in fact have a 4th level character (with an ECL of 5).

I am strongly favouring option "A". I'm also the DM. I am trying to exercise my understanding of the Gestalt rules. Thoughts?

 

[Zurai]

I rule it as option A, but there really is no official RAW regarding gestalt monsters.

Note that option A gets really complicated really fast when you're dealing with things like Giants or Dragons that get tons of hit dice. Gestalting a class alongside the HD dramatically increases their power. With gnolls and other low-HD/low-threat monsters, it's not so big a deal.

Regardless of A or B, the Level Adjustment needs to take up both sides of the gestalt to be even superficially balanced.

 

[Herobizkit]

Regardless of A or B, the Level Adjustment needs to take up both sides of the gestalt to be even superficially balanced.

What does this mean, exactly?

 

[Zurai]

Some people only enforce level adjustment on one "side" of a gestalt build. For example, a Drow Ranger 3//Fighter 1. That way lies brokenness.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Some people only enforce level adjustment on one "side" of a gestalt build. For example, a Drow Ranger 3//Fighter 1. That way lies brokenness.

Quite so.

Option "A" is the way I've always done gestalt with LA.

 

[Herobizkit]

Some people only enforce level adjustment on one "side" of a gestalt build. For example, a Drow Ranger 3//Fighter 1. That way lies brokenness.

I'm not sure I follow the references to Level Adjustment, but IMC I always advance both sides of Gestalt equally, or as equally as I can.

Once I make my Gnoll Brb//Brd 2, he'll have two levels of Gnoll and one each of Brb and Brd; from then on, I'll be taking straight Brb//Brd until if/when I decide to Prestige. Is THAT what you mean when you say "balance level adjustment"?

 

[Sound of Azure]

I'm not sure I follow the references to Level Adjustment, but IMC I always advance both sides of Gestalt equally, or as equally as I can.

Once I make my Gnoll Brb//Brd 2, he'll have two levels of Gnoll and one each of Brb and Brd; from then on, I'll be taking straight Brb//Brd until if/when I decide to Prestige. Is THAT what you mean when you say "balance level adjustment"?

Sorry I wasn't really clear.

What I mean is this: you know how Gnolls have a Level Adjustment of +1? You just need to make sure that LA +1 occurs on both "sides" of the gestalt.

Using your example PC, you'd have:
Left Side: Gnoll 2/ LA +1
Right Side: Barbarian 1/Bard 1/ LA +1

and then continuing from there until/if you go for a prestige class. If it were a Drow PC, you'd have to have LA +2 on both sides.

What Zurai and I were saying was that some people only put the LA part on either the left or the right side instead of on both sides (as I feel is intended). I think that's broken because it removes all the normal penalties from the Level adjustment (loss of HD, skills, and saving throw/base attack progression).

 

[Herobizkit]

I think I'm having such an issue understanding LA because it's never come up IMC. I only use LA to guesstimate encounter difficulty by calculating ECL.

 

[udalrich]

LA is difficult to do with gestalt, but requiring it on both sides certainly isn't the correct answer.

Let's consider two non-gestalt characters. Fred is a Barbarian 10 with a LA +0 race. George has 5 levels of Barbarian and is a melee-oriented race with a +5 LA. Both are ECL 10, so they are equally powerful (assuming LA works like it's supposed to).

Now we make them gestalt Barbarian/Clerics. Fred gets to add 10 levels of cleric. If George's LA applies on both sides, he gets to add 5 levels of cleric. I don't see how, if we started with two characters of the same power, adding 10 levels of cleric to one will balance with adding 5 levels of cleric to the other.

Just letting one side be the LA is also probably wrong. A "level" of LA gives things that are good enough to balance 0 skill points, +0 BAB, +0 to all saves and +0 hit points (including the con bonus). One of the more extreme examples, adding Barbarian to Wizard gives 2 skill points (no int bonus), 0.5 BAB, 0.16 Fort save and (approximately) 1d8 hit points (no con bonus). Adding Barbarian to LA would give 4+int skill points, +1 BAB, +.5 Fort save, +0.33 Reflex and Will Save and 1d12+con hit points, which is much better.

One solution that I've seen are that you have to apply LA to both sides before any other class. So a 5th level Bard/Barbarian with a LA +3 race would be LA 2/Bard 3 and LA 1/Barbarian 4.

I've also seen that a LA +1 uses both sides of a full level, but LA is reduced by one-third or so. So the 5th level Bard/Barbarian with a LA +3 race would be LA 2/Bard 3 and LA 2 /Barbarian 3.

Another way of thinking about it is that gestalt classes are stronger than non-gestalt classes. If a race has goodies worth giving up N non-gestalt classes, it's not going to be worthwhile to give up N gestalt classes for the same goodies.

If you were ambivalent about playing a LA +0 race or a race with a high LA in a non-gestalt game, would it change your mind if the GM announce that only NPC classes were available? It's obvious (to a power-gamer) that gaining bonuses worth 5 levels of barbarian (a +5 LA race) is a great trade for 5 levels of warrior.

 

[szilard]

LA is difficult to do with gestalt, but requiring it on both sides certainly isn't the correct answer.

My rule: You can Gestalt levels of Commoner with LA, but nothing else.

-Stuart