D&D 5E Gnomes/clockwork/making sense of it

[Harzel]

I have several comments which might head one off in disparate directions, but, for what they're worth, here they are.

1) You get to decide how you spend your time. Incorporating someone else's ideas into your world takes effort and particularly if you have not started the campaign, you are within your rights to eliminate things, even from the PH, that you think don't fit.

2) I don't know what the level of tech in your world is exactly, but, as you note, medieval Europeans (not to mention the rest of the world) were not lacking resourcefulness. Although it seems often overlooked in D&D, historically, they certainly had a variety of tech based on pulleys, levers, springs, and gears - they just tended to be, in comparison to clockworks (whatever you take that to mean, exactly), relatively large and simple. It might be worth a few moments to consider how (or whether) that level of mechanical tech fits in your world and what the consequences of that are and how that might relate to clockworks.

3) My reading of the Rock Gnome 'Tinker' feature in the PH (which is what I assume you are referring to) is that clockwork devices are somewhat limited in capability and definitely fragile - requiring an hour of daily maintenance just to keep one functioning. For me, this must reflect some underlying weakness or limitation. The thing that seems most likely to me is that the level of metallurgical and machining technology available is just not sufficient to allow the production of small, reliable precision parts. Perhaps inclusions, impurities, and other flaws just render the metals unable, at that scale, to withstand sustained use. (Caveat: I am neither a mechanical engineer, nor a materials specialist. If you are, feel free to jump in, but try not to be unkind. )

4) QFT:

Now instead of thinking about why these things can't both be true, start brainstorming how they might, could, or may be true. Then pick one or more of those reasons, go with it, and don't look back. This is a good exercise in imagination for almost any facts that might seemingly come into conflict when thinking about the setting. When we stop thinking about how something can't be, it becomes easier to see how it could be.

I find this to be a very valuable approach. Credit to @iserith for crystallizing it (and repeating it enough times so that I finally got the idea ). I now consider it one of the primary items in my toolbox.

An easy one might be that this gift of artifice is divinely-inspired, something imparted only to rock gnomes by Nebelun the Meddler, a lesser god of inventions and good luck. Other races don't have that special something to get the clockwork machines to work, even if they can replicate them mechanically. From his workshop in the Golden Hills, he can see all rock gnomes tinkering away on their inventions throughout the multiverse. Those creations that meet with his approval begin to click and whir and spring into motion.

Much different than my resolution (#3), but I think that just shows the approach can take you to a lot of different places. I will add, though, that IMO this is still subject to #1: there are an infinity of things that you could add to your world and doing so takes energy - there's no reason to be shy about rejecting stuff that you feel doesn't fit or just falls too far down your priority list. I give first priority to ideas from myself and my players; unnecessary cruff that WoTC includes in their materials for unknown reasons not only isn't high on my list, it frequently annoys me as well (but I guess that's obvious from the first part of that sentence) - see next point.

I think I've hit on a problem (at least for me) with the newer character classes and races - they pull in stuff from D&D worlds (e.g. planar ideas) that don't fit my setting. There are similar (but more easily brushed under the carpet) issues with at least two of the other PCs. I find the official books too setting-proscriptive. I have a very specific vision for my game world, and D&D does its hardest to interfere, even though, as its core, 5e is very friendly to customisation.

5) Yes, one of the things that really grinds my gears (so to speak) about 5e materials is the authors' apparently carefree attitude about including amongst fairly generic D&D world assertions things that are notably less common takes on how the world works. To be sure, there is a continuum that extends from the precise mechanical rules that pretty much everyone would agree constitutes RAW through traditionally generic assumptions (e.g., in most towns you can buy a sword and leather armor) toward things that are true in many but definitely not all D&D worlds, and that makes it difficult to draw a bright line. However, in the context of the PH and other places that players expect to be able to treat as "the rules of the game", WoTC have included enough things that are at the questionable end of the aforementioned continuum, without marking them in anyway as "you need to ask your DM if this is the case or not", that it causes IMO an unnecessary amount of confusion and conflict. But I guess that is probably grist for a different thread.

 

[Grainger]

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[Grainger]

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[Grainger]

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[Blue]

True, but dungeons are the works of evil geniuses,"

And by the book, Rock Gnomes are geniuses about clockwork. No other race has that ability.

or at the very least architects with access to great resources,

Except that a small clockwork toy would not take the same resources as a huge dungeon trap. Backed up by the PHB putting the cost at 10gp worth of materials. Sure, over a week's living expenses for a modest person makes this expensive for the man-on-the-street, but doesn't need great resources.

And, they're not devices that can be easily made by one (non-absurdly rich/magical) individual

Except that they are clockwork, so they explicitly do not need to be magical. And we've already debunked rich by the information in the PHB.

If you don't like what is in the PHB, houserule it away. In which case that's how it is at your table. All good. But if you let the PHB stand, then you need to debate with points that match the rules.

 

[Grainger]

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[Blue]

I think you may have missed the point of my post. You are actually agreeing with me!

Someone said that D&D has dungeons using advanced tech, and if clockwork was a problem, dungeon tech would be too. I replied that it's not comparable because the clockwork devices will be more visible to normal people (e.g. peasants) in the campaign world, compared to a rare dungeon in the middle of nowhere, and would be easier o replicate. So you are agreeing with me, not refuting my point!

For example, when you say that the clockwork isn't magical... I know that - that was exactly what I was saying! I was making the point that clockwork would be much more easily replicable in the game-world than dungeon tech would. In this thread, some posters suggested I work around the problem by ruling that the Gnomish tech is magical. In my solution to the problem, I even concluded that I would continue to treat clockwork tech as being purely technological, not magical.

I am agreeing with you only if I accept the assumption that just because it's seen it's able to be industrially replicated. Which I don't. Maybe there are other geniuses - who would make traps in dungeons - who will do it. Assuming they can be wholesale replicated because they are "out there" is not held up by our own history and is incorrect as the default position. Here's some snippets from wikipedia about clockmakers:

"From the beginning in the 15th century through the 17th century, clockmaking was considered the "leading edge", most technically advanced trade existing. Historically, the best clockmakers often also built scientific instruments, as for a long time they were the only craftsmen around trained in designing precision mechanical apparatus.

"Prior to 1800 clocks were entirely handmade, including all their parts, in a single shop under a master clockmaker. Examples of these complex movements can be seen in the many longcase clocks constructed in the 16th and 17th centuries. By the 19th century, clock parts were beginning to be made in small factories, but the skilled work of designing, assembling, and adjusting the clock was still done by clockmaking shops."

So it took four centuries in the real world for them to even start making the parts in factories. Everything before then was hand-made. And that's with a world that pushed technology hard because it didn't have access to magic.

 

[Satyrn]

Step 1: Build clockwork underwear
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit!

 

[Umbran]

Fair points. Although on the last point - I don't want to have excuses for the players, I want to have a cohesive world, and have an idea of how this fits in. I don't care whether they ask or not - I want to understand it for myself.

Here's the things - there are *TONS* of anachronisms and weird bits in any fantasy world. And no, not all of them are fully explained in the minds of the world's creators. Worlds have tons of details, and we don't have time to make sure to trace each and every one of them to make sure they fit into a cohesive whole. That way lies madness.

Also, we are not talking about a world dominated by the relentless logic of science, where each and every effects must be traceable to known causes. There's magic in the world - there can be some mystery. Not "well, this is really just magic in disguise". But just "this is unexplained". Remember that there's plenty in our own world that we do not understand. We think of it as okay not because we understand, but simply because we are used to it.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

Except that a small clockwork toy would not take the same resources as a huge dungeon trap. Backed up by the PHB putting the cost at 10gp worth of materials. Sure, over a week's living expenses for a modest person makes this expensive for the man-on-the-street, but doesn't need great resources.

Resources don't have to be JUST the raw materials used to craft an object or structure. There is also the resource of time to consider. Food and firewood have to be taken into consideration; these concerns have sucked up tons of time from the lives of people as their societies develop. A certain level of advancement and management of food resources is required before people would even begin developing the skills and tools necessary for precision clockwork. Survival after all comes first before anything else.