Goblin Picador

[Wormwood]

To which the DM is going to have to rule on the fly.

Speaking strictly for myself (as an incredibly lazy DM), I find dealing with hundreds of fiddly little rules more annoying than making ad hoc rulings.

 

[Bagpuss]

Exactly rather than have a rule for every possible method of dealing with a harpoon (which would have been 3rd Ed's approach), I'd rather have the standard rule, and then guidelines on how to improvise (from the DMG).

 

[Tuft]

But 1:1 (4v4), it's silly because just as the picador ties a PC, that picador ties himself. He hasn't accomplished much.

Just put a chasm or a few pit traps between the PCs and the goblins. Or any other kind of hazardous terrain... Remember, the puller gets to choose which square to pull to, as long as it is closer. See the later parts of the unexpected tactics thread.

 

[Dausuul]

Nah, use the ignore function with care. You need to read a lot of posts to gauge someone "ignore-worthy", in my opinion. 4E is the first time I ever used the function, and my ignore list contains only one poster so far. Maybe there is a second in the making ATM, but I just say: Use it carefully.

And note that it doesn't protect you entirely. You still see answers (including quotes) to the post of an ignored poster... Which means if a thread derails, you'll still see the whole derailment except for the "offending" post.

Yeah, I put someone on my ignore list recently... then I realized there wasn't any point, since everyone else replied to his posts anyway. The only difference was that now I'd have to wait until somebody quoted the original post before I understood why the thread was derailing. So I took him off again.

Ultimately, I think it's best just to learn not to take it personally. When a poster you find consistently irritating posts something, cultivate an attitude of "Oh, that's just so-and-so going off again," enjoy a sense of superiority, and move on without replying.

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

That might be even better than my proposed save ends; instead both characters get the benefit of Tug of War and make it STR vs. STR opposed roll instead of STR vs. Fort attack roll?

Either party can initiate Tug of War against the other. The character that uses the Tug of War action gets the benefit (pull 3 squares on hit; pull 1 square on miss). The attacker holding the harpoon can drop the weapon as free action to avoid the effects of being Tugged by his target.

Man, the possibilities here . . .

Agreed, would be a nice touch.

However I'd say that the harpoonee should not get the same effect as the harpooner. On a narrative basis - the harpoonee is pulling the harpooner around based on something that's sticking in him - that's going to hurt, so he's probably not pulling as hard. Plus it's not his thing, he's unlikely to have the training to know how to pull the other guy to best effect. And on a purely gamist aspect - it's the picador's special ability, if the victim gets to use it against him, then there are times (e.g. against high strength characters) where he's going to get the shaft for 'doing his thing'.

So I'd scale down the effect that the harpoonee can have so it's a little less than that of the harpooner, but otherwise definitely a nice extension to put abilities into weapons beyond just damage and crit range

 

[LostSoul]

Since I don't want to say "No," doing so seems inadvisable.

Look at the sample PCs. Not a single one of them can make that attack roll (except on a natural 20). The dwarven fighter has a +3 Str. She can't even hit Fort 14 on a 20 with a -10 penalty (except for the "natural 20" auto-hit factor).

You'd need a Str mod of +14 to have a 50-50 chance of pulling the level 2 goblin 3 squares with that -10 penalty. What are we talking about, 8th level Fighters?

Okay, so you're not actually saying no. It's just that the modifier makes that action, which I think is cool, completely worthless.

And allowing free use of monster "special attacks" is going to result in a lot of retconning, because some of those special attacks will inevitably turn out to be extremely powerful.

Of all the monster special abilities I've seen, how many could the PCs use?

I can see this one, and using the kobold slinger's special ammo. That's about it. Neither one is terribly broken in the PC's hands.

What I want is to give the PCs a chance to use the ability, since they should be able to try. But I want it to be much less powerful, in general, than the abilities their characters know well and have trained to use. The odds should be heavily against them, and they should know that--but they should still have a chance.

Even if the PCs can use this Tug-of-War ability, I don't think they would do it often. Only in certain circumstances whould a 50% chance of pulling the goblin a few squares be worth trading a standard action for.

The picador has been training for who knows how long to throw that harpoon. Certainly, what he can do with it is quite impressive. Why should a PC pick up the harpoon and instantly be able to do the same thing just as well as the picador? It should be a desperation move or a crazy stunt, not something that goes in the PC's regular repertoire.

Notice that I'm not talking about being able to use the harpoon the same way the goblin does. I'm saying that, once you're hit by the harpoon, allowing a PC to tug on it to pull the goblin (the Tug-of-War entry) seems fine.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I love the picador, too, and I've already figured out an encounter where the PCs have to cross logs where these guys will come in handy. Heh heh.

You, sir (uh..or ma'am), are evil and I shall have to steal this idea.

 

[LostSoul]

And on a purely gamist aspect - it's the picador's special ability, if the victim gets to use it against him, then there are times (e.g. against high strength characters) where he's going to get the shaft for 'doing his thing'.

Goblin = NPC, so we don't have to worry about his feelings. We only have to worry if he's a good enough challenge for the amount of XP he has to offer. (reward/risk)

What we do have to worry about is making the option balanced - so that sometimes it's good and sometimes it sucks. That way you give the gamist a meaningful choice to make. The smart player will realize when the right moment comes and capitalize on it!

That's something that I would like to promote when playing with a gamist agenda.

 

[LostSoul]

*channels hong*
Why does no one listen to me?
No one listens to meeeee!

I'm listening. I thought that was a great list. I expect we'll see something along those lines in the DMG.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I really like the Picador. I´m going to use one in my 3e game tonight.

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You know, i should always post on the third page of threads when most of the rage has a little bit dissipated. It´s more fun. Almost... serene.