D&D 5E Goblinoids in D&D 5e: Their Origin, Story, and Tragedy (+)

For much of D&D's history, it has had plenty of races whose whole identities and stories basically revolved around them being always-evil villainous humanoid mooks that the players can kill without having to deal with any sort of moral ramifications for mass-murdering them (Point 1 of evidence). Among the most iconic of these in the game are Orcs and Goblinoids, both heavily influenced by their depictions in J.R.R. Tokien's stories in Middle Earth (the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion). Both of these creatures have roots in European folklore that Tolkien took inspiration from and adapted to fit his world and the stories he wanted to tell with it. When Gary Gygax was creating Dungeons and Dragons, he "borrowed" many creatures (Hobbits, Balrogs, Orcs, Goblins/Hobgoblins, Ents, Elves, and many others) from J.R.R. Tolkien's works and plopped them straight into the D&D Multiverse with barely a second thought. Due to the process that Goblinoids got inserted into D&D, as well as decades of clinging to tradition and Tolkien's works, Goblinoids have deviated little in the core lore of D&D from the (misinterpreted) Tolkien-version of them, aside from the addition of Bugbears to the Goblin/Hobgoblin duo and a small pantheon of minor gods that rule the Goblinoids.

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(Edit: I just want to add a note that Goblins and Hobgoblins in Middle Earth were actually just Orcs. Many people have misinterpreted their inclusion in the Hobbit as them being an entirely separate race from Orcs, which is likely where the D&D version of Goblins and Hobgoblins got their roots. "Goblin" was just a human name for the Orcs, and "Hobgoblins" were a larger breed of Goblins, probably being the Uruk-Hai or a different breed of Orcs that is larger than the typical. However, this understandably has caused a lot of confusion over the years, especially because Goblins and Hobgoblins are different from Orcs in the Hobbit movies.)

Recently, this has changed. 5e has quite a bit of information about Goblinoids in the Monster Manual and Volo's Guide to Monsters, and now Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse, that show what the true colors of these three races and their overall story in the base D&D Multiverse. Now, this is quite a big story, so I'll give you a hint: the Goblinoids are actually the victims in the D&D Multiverse. They're quite possibly the single most victimized race/group of races in the D&D Multiverse (only being surpassed by the Duergar).

I recognize that this is quite a big claim, and that I have a lot of heavy lifting to do to convince many of you of this, so let's get started.

What, Precisely, is a "Goblinoid"?​

Here we are, don't turn away now
We are the goblins that razed this town
Here we are, don't turn away now
We are the goblins that razed this town . . . to dust


Goblinoids in D&D 5e are a group of "monstrous" humanoid races ruled over by Maglubiyet, a tyrannical, warmongering god that seeks to conquer every other race and become the king of the gods (pretty stereotypical for an evil conqueror god, but it works). So far in 5e, there are only three races that are classified as "Goblinoids"; the Goblins (duh), Hobgoblins (also duh), and Bugbears. In previous editions there were even more races of Goblinoids, such as the Bakemono, Varag, Dekanter Goblins, and a few others (Orcs and Kobolds were even classified as Goblinoids at some point), but 5e mostly focuses on these three main goblinoids, with very few exceptions (Verdan, Koalinths, Norkers, Barghests).

The main reason for there being 3 different main variations of Goblinoids in D&D 5e is almost undoubtedly due to them filling all of the types of evil alignments perfectly (Goblins as Neutral Evil, Hobgoblins as Lawful Evil, Bugbears as Chaotic Evil), but there also is a folklore justification for them being classified similarly (all of them were meddlesome fey house spirits with similar descriptions and behaviors).

While the different goblinoid races in the folklore (and many others) had notable similarities that would make one assume that the creatures were related, D&D's takes on these monsters doesn't tend to share these links. Goblins are tricksy cowards and constant liars, Hobgoblins are disciplined and militaristic warlords, and Bugbears are savage Sasquatch-like humanoids with primal characteristics and uncannily long limbs. Besides the naming similarities between Goblins and Hobgoblins, there's really not much between these different races to make someone assume that they're all that closely related. And this is actually justified in D&D 5e's lore. Volo's Guide to Monsters says the following:
Maglubiyet is truly the Conquering God. He stiffens the spines of cowardly goblins. He rouses bugbears from their lazy slumber. He sets the thunderous step of hobgoblin legions. Maglubiyet takes three races and turns them into one people.

In bygone times the goblinoids were distinct from one another, with separate faiths and different customs. Then Maglubiyet came and conquered all who stood before him, mortals and deities alike. Gods and heroes who wouldn’t bend to his will were broken and discarded. He put his foot on the neck of mighty Khurgorbaeyag, bound the will of intractable Hruggek, and forced sadistic Nomog-Geaya to fall in line. What the goblins, the bugbears, and the hobgoblins were before their gods bowed to Maglubiyet no longer matters. Now they are, first of all, followers of Maglubiyet.
(emphasis mine)

As we can see here, a "Goblinoid" is just the name applied to the loosely-related races of people that Maglubiyet has (so far) conquered and assimilated into one culture and people. All of the three different Goblinoid races have distinct ancestries, Maglubiyet just managed to kill most of their previous pantheons, take control of the gods from these old pantheons that survived, and dominate the cultures of these three different races in order to force them to serve his will. And Maglubiyet has not stopped his conquest, he is continuing his wars with other gods in Acheron where he's trying to conquer the Orcish pantheon and take control of the Orcs that follow Gruumsh. It is possible that if Maglubiyet succeeds in his conquest of the Orcish Pantheon that the Orcs will become the fourth major race to be classified as a "Goblinoid", but (thankfully) for now, Orcs are not numbered among Maglubiyet's mortal ranks.

Who Were the Goblinoids Before Maglubiyet Conquered Them?​

If it hadn't been for Goblin-Eye Joe
I'd been married long time ago
Where did you come from, where did you go?

Where did you come from, Goblin-Eye Joe?

Apparently they were Fey (taking a note from the folklore, for once). With the recent mechanical changes to the Goblinoid races from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse, it has become canon due to their added Fey Ancestry trait that all three of the Goblinoid races are descended from Fey, similarly to Elves. This adds a lot to their origins that we previously did not know anything about. Apparently Volo was lying when he said "what [the Goblinoids] were before their gods bowed to Maglubiyet no longer matters", because the fact that the Goblinoids have ancestral roots in the Feywild is quite important to them, both mechanically and lore-wise.

Now that we've answered what creature type they were before becoming the Goblinoids, we need to answer another question: what type of Fey they were? To me, the answer is clearly Unseelie, because the distinction between the two Fey Courts generally falls into "If they're pretty, they're Seelie, if they're ugly, they're Unseelie", making the all of the Goblinoid races fall pretty easily into having ancestors from the Unseelie Fey. Now, there is more to being an Unseelie Fey than just being ugly, but most of the other notable traits of the Unseelie Fey (excessively cruel, slavers, malicious pranksters) also match up well with what we know of Goblinoids.

Furthermore, while this was almost definitely not intentional, there are way more Seelie Archfey that have been named in D&D products than Unseelie (this also predates 5e). There's Queen Titania, King Oberon, their three Daughters of Delight (that were corrupted by the Prince of Frost, but still count), Nathair, Skerrit, Verenestra, Damh, and more. For the Unseelie Archfey, there's only the Queen of Air and Darkness and Nintra Siotta (there's a few others that might be in the court, but aren't explicitly stated to be, like Baba Yaga, the Prince of Frost, and Neifion). With so few Unseelie Archfey listed, one has to question "why?", and the Goblinoids possibly having roots in the Unseelie Court provides an in-universe answer to that. Maglubiyet killed them. If the Goblinoids used to be their own races, members of the various types of Fey in the Feywild, followers of the Unseelie Court's Archfey, and we combine that with what we know of how Maglubiyet conquered the Goblinoids . . . it's pretty clear what happened to the rest of the Unseelie Archfey.

Maglubiyet killed most of them, and adopted the few survivors that defected into his own pantheon. If this were true, Khurgorbaeyag (the sole survivor of the old Goblin pantheon), Hruggek and Grankhul (the last two gods of the old Bugbear pantheon), Nomog-Geaya, and Bargrivyek (the only two survivors of the old Hobgoblin pantheon), and possibly even Maglubiyet, all used to be Archfey of the Unseelie Court.

Side Note: We know of precisely one god from the old Goblinoid pantheons that Maglubiyet killed; the prankster spirit that is the vestige of a former Goblin god of trickery that creates Nilbogs. We don't know their name, but know that they were a god of trickery, are now a vestige that can possess any goblin, but chooses only the most unhinged/unruly goblins in its clan, and is trying to cause disorder and chaos amongst Maglubiyet's ranks to get back for his conquest of the original Goblin pantheon. This god sound a lot like an Archfey, being a chaotic trickster spirit out for revenge against another that has wronged them. Maglubiyet is Lawful Evil and despises chaos, and Archfey are notable for their chaotic behavior, which further explains why Maglubiyet left so few members of the previous pantheons of the Goblinoids alive (and also why he now wants to conquer the Orcs, who are known for being Chaotic Evil).

As a summary, the Goblinoids were probably Fey of the Unseelie Court before Maglubiyet came in, murdered their pantheons (the Unseelie Archfey), completely changed their culture and nature (turning them into humanoids as a way to "tame" them and get the more chaotic elements from their fey nature out of them), and turned them into a minions that he uses in his battle against the Orcs and their pantheon to try and conquer and "tame" even more races.

(The names of the different races also probably changed from the time that they were Fey to the present day, due to Maglubiyet erasing their cultural heritage and changing their fundamental nature. I personally use "Gremlin" as the fey version of Goblins, "Hob" for the fey version of Hobgoblins, and "Boggart" for the fey version of Bugbears, but none of this is supported in any official 5e books and is purely my own headcanon.)

How Does Maglubiyet Treat the Goblinoids?​

You're my biggest fan
You'll follow me until you love me
Goblin-Goblin Nazis
Baby, there's no other pantheons
I know that you'll be
My Goblin-Goblin Nazis


Long story short: not well. While some of the goblinoids are definitely treated better than others (Hobgoblins when compared to the lowly Goblins), the centuries of brainwashing, eugenics, and cultural genocide that all of the Goblinoid races have undergone have resulted in their society being . . . a bit extreme. If you want a more in-depth description of how it functions, you can go read their section in Volo's Guide to Monsters, but this is the basics of how each race in the Goblinoid family is treated in the culture Maglubiyet has fostered for them:
  • Goblins are taught that the world is a place where you have to take advantage of others, or you will be taken advantage of. They're oppressed by the Hobgoblins and sometimes by lazy Bugbears, and this has created a cycle of oppression in their caste system, where they're constantly being oppressed, while also oppressing others below them in status (including their slaves and pets). Because they're constantly being beaten, robbed, mocked, and excluded, they do all of those same things to their pets (which makes them super vicious), to their slaves (which is extremely traumatizing to any survivors of being enslaved by goblins), and other goblins that are lower in station.
  • Bugbears aren't built for long periods of exertion, don't have many children, and basically have to hibernate every now and then, so most people think that they're lazy. Due to this, they live in tribes, similar to many animals, and are basically just ambush predators in humanoid form. Their two gods are of bravery/power and stealth/watchfulness, and they believe that murder is a holy tradition, and also believe that any bugbear that shows signs of cowardice is being possessed by "the Bogeyman", and shun any members of their tribes that have "betrayed their gods" by running away from a losing battle, or something along those lines.
  • Hobgoblins are taught that their only purpose in life is to be pawns in Maglubiyet's war against the Orcish Pantheon (which is true from a certain point of view, because Maglubiyet would have killed them all if he couldn't make use of them), and are extremely militaristic due to this. They're (culturally) like a mix of Nazis and Romans, and for some reason also Samurai/Ninjas, focusing mainly on honor, which they believe can only be achieved on the battlefield. They don't see the point in any of the arts (because they can't give them "honor"), believe that their individual lives do not matter (only their wars do), and have a strict hierarchical caste system that, you guessed it, entirely revolves around how accomplished they are on the battlefield.
. . . That's all not great. They're trained to believe that this is the best that life can give them, and centuries of this propaganda and brainwashing have made there be very few insurgent goblinoids, to the point where basically every other humanoid race in the core of D&D considers them to be irredeemable monsters that want to kill/enslave all of them, and treats them accordingly. They're the victims of being taken out of their previous lives, having their gods killed, and being used as pawns in an eternal war between their conqueror and every other god in every pantheon, basically turning from natural spirits of the Feywild into fantasy Nazis.

The Tragedy of 5e's Goblinoids . . . the Wise​

We walk a lonely road
The only one that we have ever known
We know where it goes

And it's home to us, but we walk alone

I think it's been made pretty clear throughout this post that the Goblinoids in D&D 5e's base lore are victims, but let's recap just to make it obvious. Here's the steps of what it took to get the Goblinoids into the state that they are now.
  1. They were Fey, probably of the Unseelie Court, that lived in the Feywild and embodied many different ideals (trickery for Goblins, the laws of nature for Hobgoblins, the primal ferocity of nature for Bugbears). They had their own cultures, traditions, religions, and whole pantheons of what were probably the Unseelie Archfey that they worshipped.
  2. Maglubiyet came from somewhere and began conquering their pantheons, killing their gods, and probably many of their population that lived in the Feywild. He eventually won the war, converted a handful of their former gods to his side, and makes the Goblinoids form a mass exodus from the Feywild into the Material Plane.
  3. In order to perfect his new "children", Maglubiyet spends centuries of eugenics, brainwashing, and spreading propaganda to turn Goblinoids from natural fey spirits into the "monstrous" humanoids that they are today, killing any that rebel and making them lose their Fey nature to try and cut off all of their ancestral roots to their previous cultures and pantheons.
  4. Maglubiyet tries to conquer the Orcs and their pantheon, igniting an eternal war in Acheron where dead Goblinoids and Orcs will forever fight against one another in an attempt to add another race of people into his flock and continue his crusade of becoming the ruler of all the gods in the D&D Multiverse.
  5. Due to this brainwashing and conditioning to his idea of a perfect world, nearly every other race in all of the D&D Multiverse shuns the Goblinoids and treats them as irredeemable monsters to be exterminated.
  6. Not only are Goblinoids rejected by every other race on the Material Plane, but they also oppress one another and are restrained by extraordinarily restrictive cultures in order to keep them under the control of Maglubiyet.
. . . That's a pretty tragic story, if you ask me. They're probably the single most victimized race (or group of races) in all of D&D 5e's core lore (possibly being surpassed by the Duergar), and are almost universally hated in the D&D Multiverse. They're stuck fighting an eternal war for an oppressive god that killed their own gods and genetically manipulated them to better serve his will, and they themselves don't even know their origins. It's sad and awful what has been done to them in-game, especially because they're pretty interesting creatures, and I'm sure that whatever their Fey cultures/pantheons were like were interesting, as well.

What are your thoughts? Did I get anything wrong (in the context of D&D 5e's lore)? Does anyone have something to add to this? Or do any of you already use a story like this?

Keep in mind that this is a (+) thread. This is not a thread to debate the ethics of killing Goblinoids, or ranting about how you hate the changes to Goblinoids in 5e, or otherwise going against the grain. I'm not saying that you have to use this story at all, this was just an analysis of their lore in 5e so far and pointing out how they're actually the victims here, in the context of 5e's lore about them. This is pretty setting-specific, but it works in any world that has Maglubiyet (or Bane for the Dawn War Pantheon could work as a replacement), the Goblinoid family of races, and an original plane for Fey. Feel free to ignore/use anything from this that you want, as well as to comment anything constructive that you think could add to the discussion.

Have a good day, and apologies for the awful song parodies.
 
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The Koalinths seem to be often overlooked, as they've usually been an entry under "Hobgoblin" where it's basically just a note saying they're "Aquatic Hobgoblins". And I think when it comes to aggressively hostile aquatic humanoids, most look to Sahuagin as the go to. Sahuagin seem to be former Sea Elves that Sekolah corrupted, but Koalinths barely get a notice in much due to the fact they've sort of been a footnote.

I guess working with this idea that Maglubiyet is trying to conquer all other races, maybe the Koalinths were his aquatic vanguard that he intended to unless on the Sea Elves. He almost conquered the Sea Elves but in desperation they called upon a force from the Abyss to stop him, and Sekolah answered. Those Sea Elves became the Sahuagin and crushed his Koalinth armies, the remaining few Sea Elves fled into hiding from both the Sahaugin and the Koalinths.
 

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AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
You can mention that Orcs, in Tolkien universe, are coming from elves who have been tortured and corrupted by Morgoth. That makes a loop back to reinstate goblins having Fey origin.
Yep. I thought about this while writing the OP, but I couldn't find a space to add it in (the article is already long enough as it is, and it's only tangentially related).

Elves in Middle Earth are called "Fairies" by Hobbits, so an argument could be made that Tolkienish Orcs (which includes Goblins/Hobgoblins, as they were the same thing) would actually be classified as Fey in D&D terms, as they're corrupted Elves. However, Gygax probably either didn't realize this or ignored it when adding Orcs and Goblinoids to D&D, so it doesn't really affect the game all that much.

Nice catch, though. Thanks for pointing this out.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
The Folkloric term bug is a version of Bogey so bogey-bear just means ‘scary monster’
"Bogey", "Boggart", and "Bugbear" were often used fairly interchangeably (which is why Fey Bugbears in my worlds are called Boggarts). There's quite a few other variants of it, too, but those are the main ones (Boggles, Bugaboos, Boguns, and even Púca are all related terms, as well).
 

Yep. I thought about this while writing the OP, but I couldn't find a space to add it in (the article is already long enough as it is, and it's only tangentially related).

Elves in Middle Earth are called "Fairies" by Hobbits, so an argument could be made that Tolkienish Orcs (which includes Goblins/Hobgoblins, as they were the same thing) would actually be classified as Fey in D&D terms, as they're corrupted Elves. However, Gygax probably either didn't realize this or ignored it when adding Orcs and Goblinoids to D&D, so it doesn't really affect the game all that much.

Nice catch, though. Thanks for pointing this out.
The orcs origin is described in the Silmarillion, so it takes a level 2 in Tolkien lore to have it.
Tolkien didn’t emphasis on that, Neither he gives clue on how orcs reproduce or even have a chance to reconnect on their elvish ancestry.
As for Gygax, who knows what he knows.
DnD take a nice path now, they redesign lore to add more possibilities, helping DM to play on the Fey side, or the evil side of goblins. I can see that they are trying to manage a match between old cannon lore and a new generic lore that can be used in part for building personal setting.
 

This is why WotC has decided that they can officially ignore canon--because they were already ignoring canon. In 2e Planescape, it was canon that Magbluiyet (and other nonhuman deities) were technically more powerful than the Realms' human gods because they were worshiped in many spheres, while the gods of the Realms (and Greyhawk and Dragonlance) were only single-sphere powers. Maggie and the other goblinoid gods are worshiped in both the Realms and Greyhawk, and are considered the default D&D deities in homebrew games as well.

If anything, Bane should've been an exarch of Maglubiyet!

It's more complex then that, racial deities had broader power, but not more power in every sphere then a local deity.

Plus a bunch of FR Gods like Bane are no longer single Sphere anymore.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
So, the original purpose of goblins and their kin is given by the following:

Kobold: 1/2hd
Goblin: 1-1 hd
Orc: 1 hd
Hobgoblin: 1+1 hd
Gnoll: 2 hd
Bugbear: 3+3 hd
Ogre: 4+1 hd

They are there to fight...but so was everything, literally.

There are implications that you could try to also cooperate. Maybe even assemble your own goblin army. But this came with risks.

(Lore was stumbled into with the decision, probably an ad-hoc one, to add the non-human deities to the first Deities and Demigods. Though these would be the enduring part of that book)
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
It's more complex then that, racial deities had broader power, but not more power in every sphere then a local deity.

Plus a bunch of FR Gods like Bane are no longer single Sphere anymore.
I think the assumption is that multi-sphere gods might not necessarily have vast amounts of raw power (seeing how many of these gods are not greater powers), but it means they have a much wider influence--broader power, as you put it. In Planescape, that's as or more important than mere rank. Maglubiyet's armies (and the armies of the goblin pantheon, which existed at the time) come from thousands or even millions of worlds. Bane has followers on two--three if you count Ravenloft, but it's unlikely that souls can leave the Demiplane any more easily than living beings can--and as a whole, the pantheon only has followers on one world.
 


Anarchclown

Explorer
It's funny. I've been doing a story about how the goblinoids are screwed over by their current deity in the world that I'm running, while other goblinoids are untouched by the warlike lunatic for a few years now in game. It feels strange when your own imagination becomes canon all of a sudden.
 

Great article. Boldly includes some reasonable head canon, which WotC would do well to consider.

A couple of points: in some sense it’s true that Gygax took the Tokienian goblin whole cloth. But Gygax always kind of flattened the Tokienian source, intentionally or unintentionally giving it his own North American-ish, materialized/quantified gamist stamp.

We all know that Tolkienian goblins /orcs were once Elves and/or Men. This tragic origin didn’t really find its way into D&D till now.

Also: Faramir honestly said that he would not lie to a orc. Which shows that these beings are worth not lying to.

There are several sources that went into forming Tolkien's orcs/goblins, besides English folklore:

1) Victorian literary tales, which though based on folklore, are modern “bourgeois “ dainty nice-ifications. Tolkien’s early conception of goblins was dainty. He wrote a poem about cutesy wee goblins. He later explicitly expressed distaste for this source (and his own poem); but it was part of the process of coming to LotR style orcs.

2) War experiences. In one early note (WW1 era), he equated Germans with goblins/orcs. (!) This was later mollified by his stated remorse for the destruction of Germany.

3) Theosophical and Anthroposophic (Steinerian/Barfieldian) esoteric stories about the “evil race” of fallen humanity which results from the biblical separation of the “goats” from the “sheep.”

4) The Anglo-Saxon conception of “orcneas” demons, from the Beowulf era.

These four sources played a role in shaping Tolkienian goblins/orcs, in addition to the traditional English folkloric sources. These aspects didn’t really make the leap into the Gygaxian conception either.

Also: a point of clarity about the words “goblin” and “orc” in Tolkien. It’s not quite right to say that “goblin” was the human term, contrasted with “orc”. Both are “translations” into English of the same word in the Westron (Common) language: the “prehistoric“ language of the Red Book of Westmarch which Tolkien “found” and “translated” into English.

It’s just that Tolkien used a more childish sounding English word in The Hobbit, as a children's book. And then settled on “orc” in the LotR. (He also only figured out the “translation” scheme retroactively, after he’d already written The Hobbit.) And in the LotR, he wanted to get further away from the dainty Victorian connotations of “goblin”.

Anyway, great article!
 
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What I like about origin stories is they can help worldbuilding. Maglubiyet doesn't exist in my current setting (and I couldn't care less about they) and goblins follow whatever belief they choose to (mostly cultural influence). So when I read an origin story, be it this article or a book lore, I take hooks and ideas I can, maybe, use later.

When I read WotC saying "goblins have fey ancestry and were corrupted by evil gods", all I listen is "here's another idea you can tinker with", and I welcome ideas. I had a game where goblins were the villains, purely evil mf. I have a game now where orcs and goblins are just another guy next door. They all work just fine.

I'll add something else: I strongly dislike "racial pantheons" that exist only to represent "this all-father god created this race". Cultural pantheons are so much more interesting and logical. From official settings, I think Eberron did it best in this regard, to my taste, ofc.

I have to acknowledge it's a common trope, though. One of those laughable things from fantasy (medieval, sci-fi, etc.) where an entire species (in the case of sci-fi, often billions of people) just happen to be unified under a single banner, no matter what and where. Yeah, right...
It has its uses in TV and movies, yes, but we're not limited in regards to budget or audience. It's all in our minds and tabletops, and they go wherever we want them to.

Another add: IIRC, Stars Without Numbers generates worlds with different factions in power. Kudos to the design team. One world, one banner is close to impossible without mind control. Oh, wait... huh...
 
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DarkMantle

Explorer
I have to acknowledge it's a common trope, though. One of those laughable things from fantasy (medieval, sci-fi, etc.) where an entire species (in the case of sci-fi, often billions of people) just happen to be unified under a single banner, no matter what and where. Yeah, right...
It has its uses in TV and movies, yes, but I'm not limited in regards to budget or audience. It's all in our minds and tabletops, and they go wherever we want them to.

Another add: IIRC, Stars Without Numbers generates worlds with different factions in power. Kudos to the design team. One world, one banner is close to impossible without mind control. Oh, wait... huh...
Yes! I think mostly everyone appreciates that the best fantasy/sci-fi world-building is full of interesting magical and wonderful ideas.

For me, the world building is the stage. The spotlight is on how characters behave on this fantastic stage. Is it compelling? Is it believable or relatable to me how they act on that stage?

Your example above is where it could easily fizzle out for me (at least if I thought about it deeply enough), and there are many other examples. But to your point, add a mind-control element and maybe it starts feeling more relatable.

So when someone says "X is problematic, it should be this for the players" then I can think "I accept that! And at the same time, let's revisit the fiction in this new light to see how this works for people" -- which is what I think the OP is an example of. Everyone has the right to accept/decline the actual ideas as they may or may not fit with their current or future campaign, but the overall effort I think should be recognized and appreciated.
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
It's interesting to look at some of the game's early lore under the light of their new fey origins. Dragon #63, for instance, included the following: "Hobgoblin culture generally encourages a lifelong rejection of emotional displays, in keeping with the proper attitude of a warrior race. But on a personal level, the average non-leader hobgoblin will sometimes show his or her feelings, though usually only when alone or when it is believed no one else is looking." (It goes on to say that the reason hobgoblins hate elves is because elves are so free with their emotions.) Did Maglubiyet forbid emotions, perhaps as a reaction to elfin fey, or was this a survival technique they learned on their own?
Nice article!

I recall reading AD&D2e Monster Mythology (1992) about goblins when I was doing lore-building for Batiri goblins in our Tomb of Annihilation campaign. One of the PCs was a Batiri goblin worshipping Meriadar (a Lawful Neutral goblinoid/mongrelfolk deity of meditation, tolerance, and crafts).

There's a reference to a pre-Maglubiyet entity known as "Stalker" which I think is the canon inspiration point (or one of the points) for the designers' fey origin ret-con of goblins. Interestingly, "Stalker" is not worshipped formally (in 5e terms the lore makes it sound like a warlock patron OR something like Auril the Frostmaiden), has a semi-antagonistic role to goblinkind, has an undefined origin which could involve the Underdark or Shadowfell/Feywild version of the Underdark, is definitely opposed to Maglubiyet, and in terms of its profile it thematically has overlap with the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Quoting:

(p. 43) "Most goblinoid gods are clearly of a specific racial type, although Maglubiyet rules goblins and hobgoblins both, and their specific racial deities, and the entity known simply as Stalker does not appear to have any specific racial origin."

(p. 57) "Stalker (Demigod). The entity known simply as "Stalker" is an elemental entity related to the racial root stock of all goblinoid races. Stalker is always held in creation myths to have emerged from a dark underground complex into which the goblinoid race telling the tale entered in pre-history. Their intrusion drove Stalker out from his domain, and the demigod has sought revenge ever since.

Stalker is a solitary entity, without priests or shamans; goblinoids usually don't even attempt to propitiate it (a rare exception is the employment of ritual dancing to terminal exhaustion with the promises of a battle, and deaths/ souls to be devoured, offered to this dire entity). The deaths of goblinoids strengthen the hate and anger which rules the deity and its power, so it always seeks conflict, war and death (which may be why other goblinoid gods don't attempt to destroy it). It has a ravening, eternal, hateful hunger for lives and souls, but it is not powerful enough to directly oppose the stronger goblinoid gods such as Gruumsh and Maglubiyet. For this reason, it focuses its hate on bugbears, kobolds, urds, gnolls and mongrelmen. It has an especial hatred of Meriadar, the deity who attempts to bring back some semblance of respect for life to goblinoids. In many worlds, Stalker has some form of alliance with Skiggaret; while the two do not work together, there is some form of mutual tolerance.

Role-playing Notes: Stalker will send its single avatar when there is a good prospect of preying on weak communities or damaged populations (after a mass battle, for example). The goblinoid gods often permit "Stalker's share" of souls after such a conflict.

Statistics: AL ne; WAL n/ a; AoC hate, death, cold; SY creeping shadow."
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Nice article!

I recall reading AD&D2e Monster Mythology (1992) about goblins when I was doing lore-building for Batiri goblins in our Tomb of Annihilation campaign. One of the PCs was a Batiri goblin worshipping Meriadar (a Lawful Neutral goblinoid/mongrelfolk deity of meditation, tolerance, and crafts).

There's a reference to a pre-Maglubiyet entity known as "Stalker" which I think is the canon inspiration point (or one of the points) for the designers' fey origin ret-con of goblins. Interestingly, "Stalker" is not worshipped formally (in 5e terms the lore makes it sound like a warlock patron OR something like Auril the Frostmaiden), has a semi-antagonistic role to goblinkind, has an undefined origin which could involve the Underdark or Shadowfell/Feywild version of the Underdark, is definitely opposed to Maglubiyet, and in terms of its profile it thematically has overlap with the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Quoting:

(p. 43) "Most goblinoid gods are clearly of a specific racial type, although Maglubiyet rules goblins and hobgoblins both, and their specific racial deities, and the entity known simply as Stalker does not appear to have any specific racial origin."

(p. 57) "Stalker (Demigod). The entity known simply as "Stalker" is an elemental entity related to the racial root stock of all goblinoid races. Stalker is always held in creation myths to have emerged from a dark underground complex into which the goblinoid race telling the tale entered in pre-history. Their intrusion drove Stalker out from his domain, and the demigod has sought revenge ever since.
Perhaps interestingly, Stalker is very similar (except in power level) to the orc god of darkness, Shargaas. The primary difference is that Stalker is an enemy of goblins and Shargass is a patron to orc assassins (although a rival to other orc gods). I'd go so far as to say they are the same entity: a god of possible Unseelie or Shadowfell origins who is worshiped/feared by orcs and goblins alike. There's also the similar gnomish god of darkness and revenge Gelf Darkhearth, and, going by AuldDragon's blog, Cador the Shadow-Knife, a shadowy figure of hatred and revenge. And that's not even bringing in Shar or Nerull!

...I've often wanted to go through all the (A)D&D gods and figure out which ones are really the same god, or aspects of each other, but have just been given different names by different races or on different worlds/settings. I don't mean which god is an exarch of which other god; I'm talking fully-fledged Masks of God here. Are Bane and Hextor really different gods? What about Umberlee and Zeboim? I'd like to find the true D&D pantheon.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
This is why WotC has decided that they can officially ignore canon--because they were already ignoring canon. In 2e Planescape, it was canon that Magbluiyet (and other nonhuman deities) were technically more powerful than the Realms' human gods because they were worshiped in many spheres, while the gods of the Realms (and Greyhawk and Dragonlance) were only single-sphere powers. Maggie and the other goblinoid gods are worshiped in both the Realms and Greyhawk, and are considered the default D&D deities in homebrew games as well.

If anything, Bane should've been an exarch of Maglubiyet!
Bah! Mighty Maglubiyet's power is as nothing to power of the all-powerful DM. Another's defaults stop at the borders of my campaign worlds.
 


The war between goblinoids and orcs is one that has been around for so long that D&D had to keep it in, of course, presumably for much of the same reason why demons and devils are at constant war with each other--to help explain why they haven't killed or conquered everyone else. But in-universe, it makes me wonder why Maglubiyet isn't trying to conquer elves, gnomes, or other fey-descended people. Of all the mortal creatures, why is he so interested in orcs? Why not humans or dwarfs? Does he want to replace hoboblins with something stronger? Create a superior hoborc hybrid master race? Does he just really hate Gruumsh?
Perhaps he feels he needs to add the might of the orca to his army before conquering elves or whatever pantheon he wants next
 

Erdric Dragin

Adventurer
This is what angers veteran D&D gamers. The unnecessary lore changes. You can add more goblin lore without dramatically, suddenly and contrivingly transforming them into Fey.

Must really suck in people's D&D games to have had a set lore for Goblinoids in the game, only for the DM to pull out a new stat block all Goblinoids are suddenly Fey. I know if pulled that on my players, the first question would be,"Since when? So all my previous goblinoid encounters they were Fey the whole time? This makes no sense."

For players/DMs who take role play and cohesion more seriously in D&D, you completely take away that immersion by suddenly retconning or changing aspects of D&D that affect the entire game.

Just leave the lore alone, haven't they learned their lesson with 4e? D&D gamers hate these kinds of changes, just stay consistent in all editions. Now we have 5 separate universes of D&D with their own lore. Way to truly divide the player fanbase once again.

Who are they actually appealing to these days?

If I ran this company, there'd be none of this new edition crap, I'd guarantee support for all the editions, and I'll definitely bring back Dragon and Dungeon Magazine.
 

This is absolute humano-elvish propaganda.

Maglubiyet was the only one who was willing to accept the 'rejected' races of goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears who lacked powerful patrons such as Gruumsh, Corellon Larethian, Moradin, or whatever grab-bag of deities the humans are worshipping lately.

Goblinoids were forced off their land by humans, elves, and dwarves and then forced off the remaining land by orcs. It is for this reason we live in caves where nobody else wants to live! Only Maglubiyet was willing to accept our worship.

Other gods have their favorite races--orcs for Gruumsh, elves for Corellon, dwarves for Moradin, and the like. Maglubiyet's embrace of diversity was not accepted by the prejudiced gods of the other races. Some of you might be surprised to learn that Maglubiyet has orcish and even human worshippers! But of course you wouldn't learn about that in anything written by a human supremacist like Mordenkainen or Tasha!

Maglubiyet doesn't demand a WIS or CHA before giving you spells. He only asks that you give him your worship and tie your fate to that of the goblinoid races. Many wizards and priests of other gods have found their way working with the goblinoids when the arrogant humans and elves have cast them out.

You say goblinoids are violent--are you surprised when you invade our homes seeking treasures and 'experience'? You drive us from the surface of the earth and then try to take what little remains to us!

Grog
Shaman of Maglubiyet


(OOC: OP is really quite clever and creative and I wanted to riff off it)
 

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