GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Previews/Discussion

[Upper_Krust]

@Upper_Krust I've already commented on Kickstarter to the effect I'm a release the beta and keep it to one Omnibus book person.

Thanks for the feedback - the vote is actually pretty close last time I checked.

That said, I truly appreciate your active engagement across platforms!

Well obviously I feel a bit silly missing the release date - even if its largely due to me increasing the page count by 50%. I think for future Kickstarters I'll finish the book first. Will save on headaches later.

 

[Upper_Krust]

The latest Preview is the Current Build of Thor:

Thor, Challenge Rating 32

Let me know what you think.

 

[ArcanistDragonborn]

I think Thor's statblock looks incredible! I am wondering, what Divine Rank would a party need to be to avert/stop Ragnarok and save Thor from his fate?

 

[AnotherGuy]

@Upper_Krust I did not vote on the kickstarter, but my idea is you release your baby as you feel it should look, your baby, your vision. Aim to have as little to no regrets.
Personally I do like the idea of the 3 books as per your post upthread.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I think Thor's statblock looks incredible!

Thanks amigo. I think there is still room for improvement but it's a decent start.

By the way I folded Tactics into the Legendary Reactions (hence no tactics) and Adventure Ideas into the Lore. That's why those features are no longer there.

I am wondering, what Divine Rank would a party need to be to avert/stop Ragnarok and save Thor from his fate?

Depends how grand you want to make Ragnarok. I mean is that simply defeating Surtr or defeating all the giants, all the undead, plus the trolls, plus the Dark elves, Jormungandr, Fenris Wolf etc. So a full Ragnarok, would likely need planned out.

So probably depends at what point Ragnarok is at.

People rightly see a party of Epic Level characters as powerful. But a party of Intermediate Gods would be ridiculous.

 

[Upper_Krust]

@Upper_Krust I did not vote on the kickstarter, but my idea is you release your baby as you feel it should look, your baby, your vision. Aim to have as little to no regrets.

Thanks buddy. I just think this was the wrong moment for the Beta. Too much reformatting going on.

Personally I do like the idea of the 3 books as per your post upthread.

The more I thought about it the more It became clear the Player's Guide needed the Epic Spells.

So that meant an Epic Magic book was not needed.

The Question then becomes should the Artifacts be in the Games Master's Guide/Epic Campaigns book - still not sure what the final name will be for that. It probably makes the most sense that they are.

 

[Just Passing Through]

After some more testing I have a few more things to say about your system.

First just what on earth is up with nezhas damage?

dpr check
Actions: 2 attacks +sneak attack +wall of fire. Dpr 275+134 =409

And then we add in the reactions. Assuming max reactions

Unbloodied is 409+108 =517

Bloodied is 409+360 =769

But there is more

Mythic mode
Actions: dpr 312+165+268 =745

Unbloodied is 745+108=853

Bloodied is 745+720 =1,465

And even more

Realm = 288 extra every other round (lair) divided over three rounds for for calculation is 192 per round

Actions : 679 +192 =871

Unbloodied is 871+107 =978

Bloodied is 871 + 674=1,545

Mythic actions 1257

Bloodied mythic is 1257 + 1248=2,505 dpr



The dragon for comparison

Crush 64 per round

Breath 348+64=412 dpr including burning

Round 2 multi 291+64=355 with max damage claws

Round 3 multi 262+64 =326

Reactions unbloodied 216 extra

Bloodied 312 extra

For a total average dpr of 628

I get that you want fights to be dangerous, but a guiding principle of 5e design is that monsters should be doing about 1/3rd of their max hp in damage in order to facilitate combat lasting for 3 rounds. Nezha does enough damage to kill himself in a single round, multiple times over in extreme circumstances.

I like dangerous fights, I don’t like nuclear tag where the entire battle comes down to the initiative roll. And I am concerned that the extreme damage boost you have given to martials is going to lead to that. Not only in the base damage boost, but also the critical hit boosting you have talked about and have shown with both nezha and thor, where they do so much crit damage that it is pretty much instant death for anyone lower level.

I am also concerned about how casters will fare in your system. Everything of cr 16 or above having legendary resistance immediately renders a lot of a casters toolkit virtually useless. Speaking from my own experience everything having legendary resistance makes playing a caster very painful. And with all deities getting wish to duplicate utility spells, much of casters strengths are given to non casters as well. This is not inherently a bad thing, it eases a lot of pain points and allows for more interesting encounters as everyone now has some more tools to deal with a variety of situations. But it does leave me with the question of what casters will get out of your system.

Having tested it further, I am sticking to my initial assessment of damage thresholds. I am still not a fan of the mechanic, and will probably house rule it away or change how it works.

Speaking of house rules, for creatures with a mythic form I have taken to saving their bloodied legendary reactions for their mythic form, but allowing them full access to them throughout the entirety of their mythic phase. So basically normal form=first four reactions. Mythic form =last two open up. This was because I found them loosing access to their big legendary actions once they turned mythic and regained all hp hurt the feeling of momentum and danger.

On another note, spell breaker from thors stat block is really really weird as a bonus action. It should probably be a once per round reaction.

I do not mean to discourage you by writing this, far from it. I am a huge fan of epic gameplay, and I think that many of the design choices you have made (like everyone getting save proficiencies) are perfect for the system. Also I really like that thors punches and slaps send people flying on a crit, though if it were up to me I would make them knock people flying on a regular hit as well, just for the cinematic effect if nothing else.

 

[Upper_Krust]

After some more testing I have a few more things to say about your system.

First just what on earth is up with nezhas damage?

dpr check
Actions: 2 attacks +sneak attack +wall of fire. Dpr 275+134 =409

And then we add in the reactions. Assuming max reactions

Unbloodied is 409+108 =517

Bloodied is 409+360 =769

But there is more

Mythic mode
Actions: dpr 312+165+268 =745

Unbloodied is 745+108=853

Bloodied is 745+720 =1,465

And even more

Realm = 288 extra every other round (lair) divided over three rounds for for calculation is 192 per round

Actions : 679 +192 =871

Unbloodied is 871+107 =978

Bloodied is 871 + 674=1,545

Mythic actions 1257

Bloodied mythic is 1257 + 1248=2,505 dpr

Well, it's been a while since I checked Nezha's stat-block, but he should only have 1 attack (Level 20 Rogue), hypothetically he could be Hasted of course, but he only gets the sneak attack bonus once.

If he is +12 Challenge Rating, he gets 4 Reactions. Averaging 6d8 per Reaction.

So Longspear = d10, if it's +3 damage is 4d10, +3 Flaming = 4d10 piercing + 2d10 fire, Demigod dice multiplier x3 so 12d10 piercing + 6d10 fire = 99 average.

that is technically a +5 weapon (+3, and Flaming +1, and Returning +1).

Average damage dice for a CR 24 Demigod is 36d8 = 162 + Average 27 per Reaction.

The dragon for comparison

Crush 64 per round

Breath 348+64=412 dpr including burning

Round 2 multi 291+64=355 with max damage claws

Round 3 multi 262+64 =326

Reactions unbloodied 216 extra

Bloodied 312 extra

For a total average dpr of 628

Not sure how you are getting those numbers.

60 Hit Dice Monster
Multi-attack = 60% of Hit Dice = 36 dice in this case (Average d8s); therefore, it's 3 attacks average 12d8 each
Reactions = 10% each = 6 dice each, average 6d8

Breath Weapon = 50% of Hit Dice in d8s.

Therefore Dragon multiattack averages 168 + 27 per Reaction.

Challenge rating 24 should (IMO) deal an average 210 damage in my opinion. Although depending on the number of Reactions (which are spread among different attackers) that would be more like 195-276.

I get that you want fights to be dangerous, but a guiding principle of 5e design is that monsters should be doing about 1/3rd of their max hp in damage in order to facilitate combat lasting for 3 rounds. Nezha does enough damage to kill himself in a single round, multiple times over in extreme circumstances.

1. He should only get 1 melee attack (unless hasted)
2. Reactions are spread across different attackers. He cannot take two Reactions against the same target.

I like dangerous fights, I don’t like nuclear tag where the entire battle comes down to the initiative roll. And I am concerned that the extreme damage boost you have given to martials is going to lead to that. Not only in the base damage boost, but also the critical hit boosting you have talked about and have shown with both nezha and thor, where they do so much crit damage that it is pretty much instant death for anyone lower level.

I agree the damage is high (and indeed there seems some miscommunication in the stat-block somewhere if you are thinking Nezha, does 600+ per round).

I am also concerned about how casters will fare in your system. Everything of cr 16 or above having legendary resistance immediately renders a lot of a casters toolkit virtually useless.

that's why I also added each use of Legendary Resistance costs a Reaction AND also -1 to Proficiency Bonus until after a long rest.

casters also get the same multiplier as martials.

Speaking from my own experience everything having legendary resistance makes playing a caster very painful. And with all deities getting wish to duplicate utility spells, much of casters strengths are given to non casters as well. This is not inherently a bad thing, it eases a lot of pain points and allows for more interesting encounters as everyone now has some more tools to deal with a variety of situations. But it does leave me with the question of what casters will get out of your system.

necessary evil though until someone comes up with a better solution.

Having tested it further, I am sticking to my initial assessment of damage thresholds. I am still not a fan of the mechanic, and will probably house rule it away or change how it works.

the new Damage Threshold mechanic is Hit Dice x0.3. So Nezha would have Damage Threshold 18

Speaking of house rules, for creatures with a mythic form I have taken to saving their bloodied legendary reactions for their mythic form, but allowing them full access to them throughout the entirety of their mythic phase. So basically normal form=first four reactions. Mythic form =last two open up. This was because I found them loosing access to their big legendary actions once they turned mythic and regained all hp hurt the feeling of momentum and danger.I

Agreed

On another note, spell breaker from thors stat block is really really weird as a bonus action. It should probably be a once per round reaction.I

Thanks, I'll look into it. As I said in the Update, that's not the final version of Thor.

I do not mean to discourage you by writing this, far from it. I am a huge fan of epic gameplay, and I think that many of the design choices you have made (like everyone getting save proficiencies) are perfect for the system. Also I really like that thors punches and slaps send people flying on a crit, though if it were up to me I would make them knock people flying on a regular hit as well, just for the cinematic effect if nothing else.

thanks amigo.

seems there is some confusion on the damage. But I am sure we will get to the bottom of it. Not sure how you are getting those numbers for Nexus and the dragon. Maybe I have not explained it well enough in the stat block

 

[Just Passing Through]

Hey upper krust, thank you so much for the reply. My apologies for the tone of my above post, I was half asleep when I wrote it.

I just want to say that I really do enjoy all of the work you have done so far and all the previews you have posted. Even reading your older work, such as the old immortals handbook material, has sparked ideas for epic games of my own, so I am very interested in how your system works out and in all of the new material you have created.

I know that this is not your primary focus, but seeing the red dragon statblock (which I am a huge fan of) got me wondering if we will be seeing any “upper krust” versions of other existing dnd monsters. Creatures like solar angels, demon lords, archdevils, and potentially even Tiamat herself (I am guilty of being a huge sucker for dragons). I would love to see your take on some of these monsters!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey upper krust, thank you so much for the reply. My apologies for the tone of my above post, I was half asleep when I wrote it.

No worries amigo.

I re-read the Nezha stats, I see I have:

+3 Flaming, Returning Longspear of Speed...which would be a +6 weapon which Nezha should not have. My mistake.

The problem is the Speed property.

So either the spear should be +2 or ditch the Speed effect.

+2 Flaming = 3d10 piercing + 2d10 fire. x3 (demigod) = 9d10 + 6d10 = 82 + Dex. Mod. likely +11 under the latest build. So 93 per hit.

Basically:
Divine Rank 1 = 3 Legendary items
Divine Rank 2 = 1 Artifact + 2 Legendary
Divine Rank 3 = 2 Artifacts +1 Legendary
Divine Ranks 4-5 = 3 Artifacts
Divine Rank 6 = 1 4D Artifact + 2 Artifacts

So technically Nezha, should have two Artifacts and a Legendary rarity item.

ie. Two at +5 and One Legendary rarity...likely two given his additional attainment slot.

I just want to say that I really do enjoy all of the work you have done so far and all the previews you have posted. Even reading your older work, such as the old immortals handbook material, has sparked ideas for epic games of my own, so I am very interested in how your system works out and in all of the new material you have created.

Thanks amigo. Some stuff is tricky to balance. Number of attacks is notably bothersome. Crit Chance boons combining with Crit Damage multipliers combining with Extra attacks gets crazy. But everything (more or less has a counter).

I know that this is not your primary focus, but seeing the red dragon statblock (which I am a huge fan of) got me wondering if we will be seeing any “upper krust” versions of other existing dnd monsters. Creatures like solar angels, demon lords, archdevils, and potentially even Tiamat herself (I am guilty of being a huge sucker for dragons). I would love to see your take on some of these monsters!

My version of the Balor is in the Magic chapter under the Balor Bodyguard Epic Spell. I might add my version of the Solar under the Squad of Solars Epic Spell. I also have Orcus and Cthulhu.

No plans for Tiamat just yet (maybe in the Bestiary) although I know dave2008 is itching to make Tiamat using these rules.