God,.The Devil, And a Neutral Cleric

[Borthos]

So I'm planning my next campaign, and it's going to be a western themed using the PF rules. Easy enough because I have all the 'core' books and whatnot.

Aaaaanyway. My campaign is going to be a bit more "real world" based. Not too much, but not 20 gods, and people with extra large axes and swords, all that. I'm kind of planning this around the gun rules as well, so I'm perfecting the world before the guns get here.
There will be no wizards (later thread), and everyone who casts will be a spontaneous caster, (again, later thread). Also, only humans (Guess what? later thread!)

So what I'm going to do is run a real-world religious setting. I'm only going to run 2 gods, God (Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, w/e you call him personally), and the Devil (Beelzebub, Satan, the Serpent, w/e) and I'm deciding domains and whatnot. I'm doing 3 favored weapons for each one to give a little bit of room for personalizing.

For God, I used what I thought came to mind from what I remember of my religion classes in high school, and 3 of the Archangel's weapons for favored weapons.
God: NG. Favored Weapons: Longbow, Longsword, Mace. Domains: Good, Glory, Healing, Protection, Sun.

For the Devil, well, I kind of winged it on favored weapons from different "Devils" of the world, and went with common sense on domains.

Satan: LE. Favored Weapons: Claws, Spiked Chain, Longsword. Domains: Death, Destruction. Evil, Law, Trickery.

I'm posting to ask your opinion on the Domains chosen for them, and the favored weapons.


Also, The neutral cleric question: if you are a neutral cleric, I know you have to choose your channel energy and spontaneous casting spells at 1st, but other than that, are you restricted in any way about casting spells with any alignment descriptor?

 

[TanisFrey]

Satan: LE. Favored Weapons: Claws, Spiked Chain, Longsword. Domains: Death, Destruction. Evil, Law, Trickery.

There are a lot of demons and devils depicted with a Whip or Cat-o-ninetails, you may want to have this replace the claws as a favored weapon. There will not be many human cleric of Satan that would choose claws as a favored weapon.

The neutral clerics should choose either god or satan based on their choice of channeling positive or negative energy. You then restrict the alignment based spell based on that choice. A neutral cleric should need to be extra careful to follow the dictates of their god or loose access to the Good or Evil domains more easily than other powers of a cleric.

 

[Glade Riven]

Except the real world has all sorts of other faiths - Hindu, Buddhism, Confucianism, Animism, Ancestrial Worship...to name a few.

 

[pawsplay]

The neutral clerics should choose either god or satan based on their choice of channeling positive or negative energy. You then restrict the alignment based spell based on that choice. A neutral cleric should need to be extra careful to follow the dictates of their god or loose access to the Good or Evil domains more easily than other powers of a cleric.

I don't see where you're going with that. That's practically the same as saying there are no neutral clerics.

Even if you didn't want to use the mechanics, I highly recommend Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual as a resource for using real-world religion and historical myth as the basis for the magical system. The author, David Chart, has written a lot of books that dig heavily into period sources.

 

[pawsplay]

For God, I used what I thought came to mind from what I remember of my religion classes in high school, and 3 of the Archangel's weapons for favored weapons.
God: NG. Favored Weapons: Longbow, Longsword, Mace. Domains: Good, Glory, Healing, Protection, Sun.

I'd replace mace with quarterstaff. I can't think of any prominent mace-wielding myths, but the staff makes me think of Moses, and the "rod and staff" business and so forth. Alternatively, how about the scimitar? Muslims favored it for much the same reason the Crusaders favored the longsword; a friendly religious resemblance to a symbol of the faith.

I'm kind of iffy on Protection: there are a lot of stories where saintly people get killed or cursed. On the other hand, there are a lot of miracles related to animals. Just a thought.

For the Devil, well, I kind of winged it on favored weapons from different "Devils" of the world, and went with common sense on domains.

Satan: LE. Favored Weapons: Claws, Spiked Chain, Longsword. Domains: Death, Destruction. Evil, Law, Trickery.

For weapons, I'd have to go with spiked chain, trident, and longspear, reflecting the traditional torments of Hell.

I'd ditch Law. While the Devil is reputed to be an oath-keeper, he is an anarchic force. What about Travel? Witches and such are often reputed to fly or to move swiftly in the shape of beasts.

 

[pawsplay]

Except the real world has all sorts of other faiths - Hindu, Buddhism, Confucianism, Animism, Ancestrial Worship...to name a few.

Well, you would only be likely to encounter those in Europe if you went somewhere near a seaport or a major river. That would be not at all relevant to a campaign of Goatherds & Gardeners.

 

[Glade Riven]

You're forgetting Native Americans & Asian immigrants (many who worked on the railroads). I suppose you could slap native american faith under "druid" (though somewhat inaccurate). Atheism also became more prevalent during the 1800s, although that may be in more academic circles. Being as how many people immigrated to America and then moved West (or immigrated into San Fransisco from Asia), religions from all over the world could crop up - even if they are in the extreme minority.

 

[Borthos]

Except the real world has all sorts of other faiths - Hindu, Buddhism, Confucianism, Animism, Ancestrial Worship...to name a few.

That is true, but how often would you say be encountered in the American West? I'd say the closest you'd get combination "Ancestral Worship" and Animism of the Native Americans, and I've got that covered with my Druid decisions. Also, I think you're misreading my initial post. I am basing it a little more on the real world, it does not take place in the real world.

Even if you didn't want to use the mechanics, I highly recommend Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual as a resource for using real-world religion and historical myth as the basis for the magical system. The author, David Chart, has written a lot of books that dig heavily into period sources.

I will definitely look into it, thank you!

I'd replace mace with quarterstaff. I can't think of any prominent mace-wielding myths, but the staff makes me think of Moses, and the "rod and staff" business and so forth. Alternatively, how about the scimitar? Muslims favored it for much the same reason the Crusaders favored the longsword; a friendly religious resemblance to a symbol of the faith.

I'm kind of iffy on Protection: there are a lot of stories where saintly people get killed or cursed. On the other hand, there are a lot of miracles related to animals. Just a thought.

Well one of the Archangels carried a mace, if I'm not mistaken. Could be, though. I'll think about the scimitar, that's an interesting suggestion.

That's true about the saints, considering the sheer number of Christian Martyrs there have been. Yeah, there are a few miracles associated with animals, but most of them aren't centered on the animal itself, usually it's relationship with a human. I'm thinking maybe travel domain as a replacement? With all the epistles in the bible and the Missionaries, travel would be a perfect domain.

For weapons, I'd have to go with spiked chain, trident, and longspear, reflecting the traditional torments of Hell.

I'd ditch Law. While the Devil is reputed to be an oath-keeper, he is an anarchic force. What about Travel? Witches and such are often reputed to fly or to move swiftly in the shape of beasts.

But the Devil is not merely out for destruction alone. He was cast out from sticking to his guns about his ideas and rebelling against a creator he thought was wrong, so now he tries to take as many souls as he can. He has a specific set of moral principles to him, however unsettling and evil they are; and he keeps his promises, just not to the spirit of the promise.

EDIT: does anyone else find it weird that the spiked chain is no longer a reach weapon? I just realized that like 3 days ago. Never used one before, neither have any of my players, so I guess I just never noticed it.

 

[pawsplay]

But the Devil is not merely out for destruction alone. He was cast out from sticking to his guns about his ideas and rebelling against a creator he thought was wrong, so now he tries to take as many souls as he can. He has a specific set of moral principles to him, however unsettling and evil they are; and he keeps his promises, just not to the spirit of the promise.

But his rebellion, as given in accounts, is against the Word. According the neo-Platonists and the Christian doctrinists, God is the Logos: all meaning, order, and purpose. Satan then is naturally opposed to the proper order of nature. Further, in his role as accuser and king of the wicked, his purpose is to consign them to oblivion, keeping them from their Creator. Yet the Creator's purpose is for His creations to celebrate His majesty. Contrast to the concept of the Messiah, a redeemer who offers a pathway to Heaven for every soul. While dissimilar in some respects, medieval Islam, also influenced by the Greek and Roman writers, had a similar concept of the Logos. As in Christianity, Iblis, the Devil, was disloyal, and again, his purpose is to defy the natural order and oppose God's majesty.

Merely being rigid does not constitute lawfulness. If done willfully, impulsively, and irrationally, a rigid adherence to some law or oath or purpose is Chaotic, and veers toward arbitrariness.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability.

Is the Devil honorable? No, he's wheedling. Trustworthy? Not on your life. Obedient to authority? Obviously not. Reliable? Doubtful.

And if the Devil commands you, he is not going to make you obedient to his law, but to his whim.

On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.

The Devil is not known for his lack of adaptability nor just judgmentalness. Is he a reactionary? Hardly, he seeks the downfall of the decreed order. Is he close-minded? Can such a word describe someone who opposes every and all things?

Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Whereas the Devil is dedicated to others acting as they should not. He does not wish for others to depend on each other; he wants them weak so they are pliable to his purposes.

 

[Borthos]

The Devil is not known for his lack of adaptability nor just judgmentalness. Is he a reactionary? Hardly, he seeks the downfall of the decreed order. Is he close-minded? Can such a word describe someone who opposes every and all things?

Whereas the Devil is dedicated to others acting as they should not. He does not wish for others to depend on each other; he wants them weak so they are pliable to his purposes.

But Lucifer didn't oppose every and all things, he opposed the idea that Angels should bow to man, when Angels were there first and humans were inferior beings, right?

And this doesn't really sound like Lucifer, does it?

A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. Chaotic evil represents the destruction not only of beauty and life, but also of the order on which beauty and life depend

Sure, he's evil and unpredictable, but his plans are never haphazard nor slipshod.

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

To me, this sounds a little closer to him. He cared none about the lives of humans, yet totally about the concept of loyalty and the order of Heaven. He was the most loyal of all the Angels, and refused to bow to humans, but only bow to God himself. But God was angry he refused to bow to humans, His "greatest Creation."
And demons make promises they keep, but only to the letter, twisting the spirit.