Gods and Demon Lords, how do you handle them?

Avatars IMC probably range from CR 40 (greater gods) to CR 20 or 25 (heros and quasi-deities). I also like the idea of Aspects, at CR 10 or so.

Deities just have more resources IMC than archdevils or demon lords, and other things to attend to. Archdevils and the like are usually a class of creatures called Typhos, the offspring of two divine beings, and possessing a fixed divine rank of 0. The offspring of a divine being and a mortal, however, is a Dalerain or Envidier, and can become a deity and gain divine ranks normally. (Envidier are heros and divinities that have voluntarily remained at DR 0).
 

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My homebrew world was specifically designed around high-power characters and creatures. There are several NPCs in the world who are at or above 40th level, so that alters the power scale of the rulers of the planes appropriately. I've never fully statted out any of my deities, but my baseline assumption for avatars (ignoring any powers gained from divine ranks that are or are not installed in the avatars as opposed to the deities themselves) is that Demideities have 30 class levels, Lesser have 50, Intermediate have 70, and the three Greater deities each have 90. The actual deities themselves would be assumed to have at least 4 times the amount of HD/levels put into their avatars. Gods frequently put on personal appearances in my game; PCs in my epic party have actually met 8 in person including all three Greater deities.

Similarly, demon/devil lords are assumed to be extremely powerful entities in their home planes, such that the stats given in BoVD (which I will likely be using soon in the case of Demogorgon at least) are assumed to be the lowest avatars of those beings. CR 10 "aspects" would be eaten for breakfast with sides of bacon in my world, so they're clearly absurd to even think about using; the least powerful form any such being will ever present is the CR 20-30-odd version one can find in BoVD or Demonomicon articles.

I have an entire logical progression for such beings, including Overgods and how they exist, built up in my mind, though much of it has never been put to paper or text file before. To avoid boring people who don't care, I'll enclose an explanation of my quasi-scientific reasoning behind all this in a spoiler block below. Read if you dare. :)

[sblock]Much of this is predicated upon certain assumptions I made about what "divine" power and magic actually are, in a "real" sense, and what it means to possess and use them. I'm something of a science buff, and accordingly I created a quasi-scientific explanation for how all this works in my world.

My base assumption for this cosmos regarding magic is that it's like a fifth basic force, along the lines of gravity and electromagnetism. In real-world physics, the Standard Model requires that the particles representing the four basic forces come in three "families" each which behave differently because of differing masses (I'm greatly simplifying matters here but that's the basic gist). I decided that the "magic" force is the same way- it comes in several "flavors," each based on a particular variety of the "viton" (the name given to the "magic particle."

Briefly, the lowest, least-mass viton is the basic "life force" that gives life to beings that actually are alive; each individual viton can be thought of as a soul in its purest, most basic form. Souls create the effects they do (such as entities that are aware of themselves and their surroudings, and help mold reality) through interactions with the other particles of the universe. As beings with vitons grow and age, they accumulate more vitons now and then, which essentially glom on to the ones they started with and merge to form a greater entity that behaves as if it's one thing. This explains why "souls" as most people think of them exist, why they can retain a personality even after death, and how souls can become more powerful (such as by gaining levels). It also explains how Negative Energy has the effects it does: the negative energy is essentially made of anti-vitons, the viton antiparticle.

Basic vitons don't have a lot of uses beyond powering mortal creatures, but a few mortals learn to manipulate them anyway- this is how Monks and others who use "Ki" powers do their stuff. The next most massive form of viton is the psi-on, the psionics particle, and above that is the magion, the magic particle. Thus, psionics and magic are difficult to manipulate, but can produce more powerful effects if one succeeds at doing so. Ki powers are thus related to both psionics and magic without truly being either one, and psionics and magic work a lot like each other and yet are separate forces of a sort. Magic and psionics can manipulate each other, weakly (magic having an advantage due to being the more massive particle form), and both can manipulate basic vitons and antivitons in various ways (thus explaining all the magic dealing with life and death).

Above all these flavors of viton is the most powerful form, the Primon, or god particle. Deities manipulate and use Primons, which can (due to being even more massive and powerful than magions or psi-ons) manipulate magic and psionics to various effect, and are basically the most powerful means of manipulating or molding reality to one's will (will itself, in fact, being an effect of viton interactions with reality). Gods are assumed to be made up, in their most basic form, of patterns of self-aware Primons, which by virtue of being the most powerful form of viton can do just about anything they like to reality through manipulation of the other basic forces. Deities are, in other words, beings of pure energy that just happen to occasionally create bodies for more convenient interaction with the mortal realms.

Overgods are something else altogether- they are, as one deity told the Epic PCs directly, "as far above us as we are above you." Overgods are essentially assumed to be patterns written into the basic quantum probability waves that give rise to the entities we think of as particles and energies. They're thus more or less intrinsic to the nature of the cosmos itself, and can manipulate it in ways deities can only dream of in fevered fantasy. Interestingly, Overgods in my game are assumed to form "avatars" of their own which are actually deities themselves, meaning that while regular deities form physical bodies to interact with lower orders of being, Overgods form "bodies" of pure Primons to interact with the divine level (of course, those avatars can form physical bodies as well if they so choose- they are deities in every sense except for not being the true house of the being's consciousness).

One interesting consequence of this line of thinking is contemplating what a being made of antivitons is and can do- undead may be assumed to be "anti-souls" of the basic type, but it's fairly obvious that antivitons of the other flavors must also exist. I thus have a concept of Anti-Gods, though I've never actually sat down and worked out just what an Anti-God should be able to do and how it might interact with the rest of the cosmos.[/sblock]
 


As for aspects, I have no use for standard aspects (or generally even avatars). If a deity needs to send a messenger, it will be a standard outsider, a mortal worshipper, or a substanceless 'aspect'. If they're for sending messages, there's no need to have them fight -- and if they're going to fight, they won't be as weak as CR 20.
 

Bryan898 said:
I'm really not trying to troll here, I'm actually quite interested in what CRs you put the deities and demon lords in your campaign, and how you deal with the god's not smashing the demon lords/ archdevils?

Generally, I don't give gods stats, and I have some justification as to why they don't (or can't) just do anything they want. Depending on the campaign, demon lords/archdevils either are gods themselves - in which case they have no stats and are similarly constrained - or they're critters with CRs in the 20-40 range who don't get smushed by the gods for the same reason that dragons and such don't get smushed (the gods can't, or aren't allowed to, or don't want to, or whatever).

I don't usually run campaigns up to epic levels so even the archdevil/demon lord stats rarely come into play... I can't actually recall a time in the last five years or so when I've had to use them.
 

The first thing I did in my homebrew was establish what critters are at the top of the food chain. I chose Dragons. It was a toss-up with beholders, but Dragons just seemed cooler, and more fun for the players. Then I worked my way down from there, modifying as made sense to me, and with rules changes that came along with the various editions for consistency's sake. Since Dragons can have a CR > 20, that meant that the epic rules were taken into account for my homebrew. This is assuming, of course, that you use CR as the power rating. YMMV.

With the top predator on the material plane set at CR 20-30, that made it relatively easy to estimate the power levels of unique outsiders (demon princes and devil lords), and even divine entities. Since the ruler of an entire plane shouldn't get slaughtered out of hand by a mere Dragon, that meant their CRs had to range from about 30 on up. As for Avatars, their CRs had to start around 20 so they could compete. Add a Divine Rank of 0, plus associated powers and possibly god-granted artifacts, and your average Avatar could challenge the greatest of wyrms and probably win, but wouldn't just wander off to the Abyss or Nine Hells to whack a prince or lord - instant logical consistency. It also meant that if a party of 20th level PCs killed a prince or lord - especially on his home plane! - then that was a feat worthy of legend!

As for Divine entities, I set their power levels as dependent entirely on the number of worshippers they had. Players in one campaign changed the entire focus of the campaign as they conducted a guerilla war against one god (Bael, CE), and created an opportunity for another god (Set, LE) to take his portfolio and become the supreme Divine power of the pantheon. Can we say, "Ooops!" ? Killing a god is entirely possible - destroy his/her/its worshippers and watch the Divine ranks drop away. Kill the souls that were transformed into servants (solars, planetars, Minions, demons, devils, etc.) and watch the Divine ranks dwindle. Then watch the other Divine powers maneuver for the kill... creating the prime opportunity for a mortal to strike. You *have* to take out a Divine entitity's power base (remove the faith, reduce the souls going to that Divine power), to reduce it to a point where it *can* be fought on a physical/magical level. Yes, at that point you might be taking on a CR 30, 40, even 50 entity, that will reincarnate within a week at a lower power level, but you killed a *god*!!!!

(FWIW, the players shifted focus again, once they realized that Set was making a power-play, and that they really didn't want the LE god of Night and Darkness in charge while the campaign world was being invaded by mind flayers. Yes, I had LG characters fighting to save a CE god... Muahahahahahahahaha!!!)

Bottom Line: I set the power limits for heroics on the material plane, and on a cosmology-scale while I was building the campaign world. So players had the pleasure of arranging, and seeing, a (believed to be dead) god's Avatar getting drop-kicked through a gate off the campaign world by the eldest silver Dragon in existence (at great cost)... and the sense of accomplishment when they used an artifact to defeat Grazz't's summoned Avatar (equivalent - I used slightly modified rules for planar entities vs. Divine Avatars) and forced it to retreat back to the Abyss or be destroyed (and Grazz't having to wait a full decade before he could form another one, while the other princes exploited the power vacuum...). Then they looked at the EHB rules and started drooling...

Note to The Serge and other contributors (?) on DiceFreaks: Great bit of work there with The Gates of Hell. That codified very closely with my own notes about the whole planar entity/divine entity (Cosmic/Divine) relationship. I only discovered DiceFreaks in the last couple of weeks, and have spent that time reviewing and digesting the information. I am *very* impressed. I plan to flagrantly yoink the good parts, with all due credit to the sources cited for the players. Thank you very much for providing me with so many great alternative ideas! :D
 

Neither of them have stats unless we're talking about avatars.

If PCs need to interact on some sort of personal, direct basis with an archfiend or a diety, they're going to do so with an avatar, a proxy, some sort of lesser manifestation. Anything more than that and as mortal PCs they simply do not, short of some macguffin, have the ability to exist on the same plateau as those entities.

And for those of you familiar with my first storyhour you'll know that I'm not at all shy about involving the PCs in plots involving such beings, having them interact with those beings, and in what way they can do so, having meaningful interaction regardless of the harsh difference in power. Just because those beings don't have stats (I'd argue they cannot be appropriately defined and encompased by the system mechanics), don't assume my vision of the planes involves a static multiverse. Oh heck no. It's been a bloody time in the planes of conflict, Elysium is missing a layer, and that's just about 1/3 into the story. In the words of the immortal Count Von Count, "But wait, there's more."

Why don't gods smack down archfiends? Because for the most part they're incapable of it on the home planes of the fiends, or to do so would leave them so drained of power that they would be ripped apart by other enemies (and the same goes for the fiends). The fiends largely ignore a deities divine domains on their planes at large, and the deities don't stick their hands in the politics of the fiends. The fiends predate the gods, and they take a decidedly longer term view of things, though one less obsessed with the prime material than gods are (being that gods are dependant on worship). Worlds will die on the prime material, gods will lose their believers' faith, and the Astral will grow thick with more and more husks of dead, forgotten deities, and the fiends will still be there regardless.
 

Bryan898 said:
I'm really not trying to troll here, I'm actually quite interested in what CRs you put the deities and demon lords in your campaign, and how you deal with the god's not smashing the demon lords/ archdevils?

The gods are a bit too busy maintaining the integrity of the universe from Far Realm incursion to slap down the demon lords.

IMC, the gods became a bit lazy and one of the primordial entities from beyond time snuck in. The gods got together and put the smackdown on this entity, but in doing so shattered the cosmos. The pools of metaphorical blood caused by the 17 wounds became the abyssal planes and the demonic lords. Currently, the gods are busy a) keeping the cosmos together, b) keeping more of these entities (called qlippoth) outside and c) slowly repairing the cosmos. Each of the seven gods has their own thoughts as to whose vision would be best, of course, and the Ancient of Days hasn't chimed in yet to voice an opinion.

So, there are seven transcendant deities who are pretty darn busy at the moment. A few dozen false Conan-esque gods who are really just powerful, and killable, beings lurk about. And there are the primal lords (demon lords, et.al.) who are killable, but have about 25-40 levels / HD and thus you have to be mythic to even consider going after them.

NB: IMC Asmodeus (nee Asmoder) is one of the seven gods.
 

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