Going beyond Grab?

[mattdm]

So, it came up in my game on Monday that the party wanted to restrain an opponent. When they asked me what the rules for grapple in this new game were (with several comments about how they better be improved), I said, well, there's really just grab, which immobilizes your target.

Cool, said the player whose action it was.

But wait, said someone else... just immobilized? You mean they can still attack and stuff? It's a goblin; he's twice its size. Can't he restrain it in some way? And I don't mean just the "restrained" condition — I mean like pinning someone.

It's a reasonable request, really, because it's something one might really want to do. And crucially, to make the game feel real, there need to be options other than "I beat on the guy".

I ended up saying, well, there's not really a way to do it in the new rules. They didn't want to end up with the grapple fiasco all over again. This was a bad DM move, really, because it left everyone feeling frustrated — and for the first time, really disappointed in 4E.

So what's the "say yes" solution here? I want to be able to deal with situations like this in the future.

My after-the-session thought was that what's wanted is really basically wrestling, and I should have allowed something like: you can attempt to prevent an immobilized player from taking any physical actions by making an athletics check vs. their fortitude defense. This'd be a standard action and would last until the beginning of your next turn. If you take any actions after this one, the effect ends automatically.

Maybe not the best possible mechanic, but it's simple and I could have come up with it on the fly. However, at this point, I really want something to give to my players next time the situation comes up. It needs to a) be within the basic spirit of the rules b) not complicated and c) reasonable, but not something you'd do except in special cases.

Suggestions?

 

[keterys]

Well, grab is escape ends, sustain minor... so perhaps add the following continuations, both standard actions.

Restrain - You may restrain a grabbed target with a Str attack vs Fortitude. (Escape still ends)

Pin - You may pin a restrained target with a Str attack vs. Fortitude. (Escape ends pin, but not restrain). A pinned creature cannot make any attacks except close attacks.

 

[Nytmare]

I've been operating under the assumption that future books will have more powers that give you more "grapple-esque" maneuvers.

 

[mattdm]

I've been operating under the assumption that future books will have more powers that give you more "grapple-esque" maneuvers.

Probably — I expect to see that for whenever a Monk class comes out. But that's for the case of making it something you do relatively often and needs balancing differently. I don't want the general-case answer to be: "you don't have a specific power, so you can't even try to do that".

 

[keterys]

Well, page 42 is the catchall answer for improvised solutions.

 

[Nytmare]

Grab, "convince", and then intimidate till they give up?

Or grab, DM realizes that the PCs have won the combat cause they more than overpower the single remaining lackey, so the DM says that the fight is over and they have a subdued prisoner?

 

[frankthedm]

It's a goblin; he's twice its size. Can't he restrain it in some way? And I don't mean just the "restrained" condition — I mean like pinning someone.

It's a reasonable request, really,

I am not so sure it IS a reasonable request. Sure it sounds reasonable now, but will the players be singing the same tune when ogres, trolls, giants and titans want to manhandle them?

I ended up saying, well, there's not really a way to do it in the new rules. They didn't want to end up with the grapple fiasco all over again. This was a bad DM move, really, because it left everyone feeling frustrated — and for the first time, really disappointed in 4E.

So what's the "say yes" solution here? I want to be able to deal with situations like this in the future.

You say "Yes, you won't have to devote characters resources to preventing big groups and every large monster from negating your character with a basic combat maneuver."

If you start making changes to the way 4E sidelines grappling, you make solos very vulnerable and boost the threat of minions a lot.

 

[Syrsuro]

As written, the rules work for what they are intended to do (with the RAI assumption that the character must keep one hand on the grabbed target to maintain the hold).

However, if a character wished to go beyond the rules and attempt to restrain the opponent I would probably allow it.

I'd probably look for some reasonable restriction (only same size or smaller, character cannot have any weapons in hand, character grants combat advantage to any other attackers, any attacks have a chance of hitting the wrong target).

But I'd allow it.

I'd also probably allow a second grab by a second character/creature to result in a restrained condition, with some conditions.

But it would always be on a conditional basis not an official rule.

Carl

 

[Starfox]

But it would always be on a conditional basis not an official rule.

Carl

I think this is the key here. Any RULE on this would be open to abuse.

The simple way, of course, is to beat on the grabbed target until he is defeated, then say you were only subduing him.

 

[Ginnel]

I am not so sure it IS a reasonable request. Sure it sounds reasonable now, but will the players be singing the same tune when ogres, trolls, giants and titans want to manhandle them?

You say "Yes, you won't have to devote characters resources to preventing big groups and every large monster from negating your character with a basic combat maneuver."

If you start making changes to the way 4E sidelines grappling, you make solos very vulnerable and boost the threat of minions a lot.

I was going to disagree, then I reread it and it made it more sense, I now agree.

I gave my player an at-will power that does grab and 5 ongoing damage no save as long as the grab continues, usual acrobatics/athletics attempt to escape.

This then links to a couple of throws a bulldog and a Gorilla press as encounter powers for a few different effects including forced movement, damage and prone. Might give him a daily backbreaker as well.

Its a different twist.

If a player had a goblin grabbed and it still had fellows around I'd make sure it kept on attacking and making a nuisance of itself if it was a mostly sane lone goblin I'd rule that the hero could automatically restrain him and indeed I did this the other day.