Going beyond Grab?

[WalterKovacs]

Bottom line: Skill vs. Defense is unbalanced. Two defensive attempts vs. one offensive attempt is unbalanced. Combined, it's the most worthless combat rules in the game system.

Grabbing immobilizes a foe.

If the foe uses one move action to escape and one to attack ... they were immobilized that round.

If the foe uses TWO move actions to escape ... they not only were immobilized for the round, they didn't ATTACK that round.

Trading a standard action to prevent the opponent from moving may be ineffective, but if you get rid of their standard AND a move, that's already an effective use of the power. If they don't beat it after the first check, it is hugely advantageous to you, trading a single minor for shutting down at least one move.

In terms of doing more than a just a grab ... well, if he's grabbed by the fighter, it is hard for him to attack anyone else if they aren't adjacent. So, you either have a goblin that is spending his actions trying to get away [which a restrained but not subdued/tied up enemy who thought he could get away would try to do] or trying to hit his captor. Grabbing doesn't prevent them from attacking, but reduces it's options of who and how to attack. If the DM wants to play to the 'restrained' thing, he may have the creature use his standard trying to escape [since for a goblin at least, getting away is probably more of a priority than attacking his captor].

 

[KarinsDad]

You're failing to look at it over a range of levels.

Isn't the point of 4E that the math is supposed to work across all levels?

For example, 1 21st level fighter with 24 Str and 16 Dex and a +5 neck (Fort 34, Ref 30) has grabbed a Larva Mage (Elite 21, Ath +12, Acro +13). Who has a 20% chance to escape in one action, 36% chance to escape in two. Worse if the party has any kind of defense boosters from other sources (can get +4 or so in Adventurer's Vault at that level, but I'm thinking more like from powers)

...

If anything it looks like maybe I made it _too good_

Having to pick one of the weakest 21st level Str/Dex creature with no skill in the MM to illustrate your point only proves how useless the normal Grab / Escape rules are.

The vast majority of monsters in the MM are not this lame. Look at the escape chances of the other 21st level monsters.

Angel of Valor Legionnaire Minion 25%/44%
Legion Devil Legionnaire Minion 100% Teleport
Ghaele of Winder 100% Teleport
Tormenting Ghost 100% Phasing
Fire Titan 35%/57% (~92% due to Double Attack)
Wild Hunt Hound 50%/75%
Marut Blademaster 100% Teleport
Giant Mummy 15%/28%
Dark Naga 25%/44% (~37% due to Psycic Miasma)
Deathpriest Hierophant 10%/19% (~55% due to Word of Orcus)
Yuan-ti Anathema 100% Swarm of Snakes

And this does not even consider the fact that PCs would not want to grab some of these monsters (like the Giant Mummy with Mummy Rot, or the Deathpriest Hierophant with Aura of Decay and Word of Orcus) and would want to keep away from them.

You also do not consider the chance to grab the monster (some of these creatures have high Reflex, so they are hard to grab in the first place), the chance to restrain the monster (some have high Fort so are hard to restrain with your house rules), or the opposite concept of PCs escaping from monsters. Except for the Giant Mummy, your Fighter has 35% or less chance to grab any of these monsters in the first place.

You only considered escape chances for a monster if grabbed by a PC. You dropped the rest of the analysis on the floor.

Look at all of the rules, not just corner cases that appear on the surface to support your POV.

Against a solo like the beholder, where the party has five chances to do these things, it has a +10 Ath and +16 Acro so has a greater chance to escape, but its actions are worth a _lot_ more and all five characters can pile onto it... its aura _might_ still activate, but it can't use any of its other powers.

Why would a Beholder float at PC height?

And what about Sleep Ray? Telekinesis Ray? Fear Ray?


Most of these monsters have a lot of ways to avoid Grab, so the tactic is still pretty lame when the Fighter gives up his Standard Action to use it.

The facts do not support your POV.

 

[keterys]

Having to pick one of the weakest 21st level Str/Dex creature with no skill in the MM to illustrate your point only proves how useless the normal Grab / Escape rules are.

How so? I'm showing that a single character shouldn't invalidate _any_ elites and solos so trivially. So I picked artillery mobs of those levels (and those were actually the first two I picked, without looking at the stats of any others) because I assumed they'd be vulnerable to the tactic. If, along the way he can't perform very well against other creatures, meh, whatever. One way can break the game. The other way just means you do actions other than grapple most of the time. Far better than the alternative.

As for floating at PC height - if your PCs can't engage a beholder in melee in any way, then they're already in trouble. It's not hard to make it happen.

As for the rest of the rays, they're ranged attacks, which you can't do while pinned by the rule I gave.

The facts do not support your POV.

You're either mistaken about what information is fact, what information is my point of view, your statement is a fabrication to support your argument, or any combination of the above.

 

[Nytmare]

My suggestion: have all the damage dealt by the attacker be subdual damage (which is allowed anyway). Once he gets the creature to 0 HP, the creature is pinned instead of killed (again, allowed by the rules).

Grab, "convince", and then intimidate till they give up?

What I had meant by that was "beat them till they were bloodied and then scream at them to give up".

 

[KarinsDad]

As for floating at PC height - if your PCs can't engage a beholder in melee in any way, then they're already in trouble. It's not hard to make it happen.

Yes, it's actually pretty easy if the DM runs the beholder like an idiot. A beholder should know it is vulnerable to melee attacks and position itself so that even if it falls due to a power, it rarely gets within melee range.

By definition, ranged attackers in DND should avoid melee at all cost due to Opportunity Attacks.

As for the rest of the rays, they're ranged attacks, which you can't do while pinned by the rule I gave.

Except that the Beholder (assuming PCs cannot dogpile) gets 10 opportunities (2 move, 2 standard, 2 action points, 2 Eye of the Beholder Auras, 2 Central Eye) to escape before being pinned. First, it has to be brought down to the ground where PCs can grab it (assuming the DM creates a scenario where the beholder cannot avoid that). Then, it has to miss 2 chances to Escape and 8 chances to offensively break away. It's very unlikely that it will ever happen in a game.

Would you as a player waste multiple Standard Actions on this slim possibility when you could instead use them for powers?


If your house rule allows for a dogpile of PCs (i.e. grab/pin/restrain by multiple PCs all in one round before the enemy can react), it makes it a lot more potent against some foes. It also allows a dogpile of minions on PCs. In that case, your house rule is too potent due to action points and such. 2 PCs could take out any solo that does not have a non-Escape power with which to escape in a single round.

So, your house rule is either too potent (if it allows dogpiling) or too lame (if it does not allow dogpiling). Either way, it's not balanced.

You're either mistaken about what information is fact, what information is my point of view, your statement is a fabrication to support your argument, or any combination of the above.

You have yet to illustrate that the normal Grab / Escape rules are good both for PCs and against PCs.

The fact that the majority of the 21st level monsters in the MM will totally laugh at Grab illustrates that your POV is mistaken.

Sure it can work once in a blue moon. But because of that rarity, players and DMs will rarely use it.

 

[Stalker0]

The math totally disagrees with you. The current option is too weak.

Example 1: 2 first level Fighters with 18 Str and 12 Dex, neither has Athletics or Acrobatics.

Chance to grab: 70%
Chance to escape: 45% with one attempt, 69.75% with two

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for one round: 21.175%

.

As others have mentioned, using two move actions to escape has just validated the grab in the first place. I would rerun the numbers with the second character using one escape chance.

 

[keterys]

Yes, it's actually pretty easy if the DM runs the beholder like an idiot.

Glad I could help you quantify a type of play by level of intelligence. Do you feel better for it?

By definition, ranged attackers in DND should avoid melee at all cost due to Opportunity Attacks.

You may want to read the beholder more carefully, on that particular objection.

assuming PCs cannot dogpile

Why would you make that assumption when
A) you can dogpile under the normal rules
B) I explicitly talk about using multiple characters on a creature

2 PCs could take out any solo that does not have a non-Escape power with which to escape in a single round.

Not quite, but there's a reason I said it was too powerful when I ran the math, yes.

You have yet to illustrate that the normal Grab / Escape rules are good both for PCs and against PCs.

Why would I have to? They're used for temporary immobilizes and action theft - it works against many foes, like fliers, elites, solos, creatures in zones, etc. It doesn't do what you want it to, but I'd much rather err on the side of caution and let more cinematic maneuvers be handled by actual powers and page 42.

The fact that the majority of the 21st level monsters in the MM will totally laugh at Grab illustrates that your POV is mistaken.

Only three of the creatures can teleport out. The rest are vulnerable, though I'd expect the anathema to commonly be allowed to get out of grab even if the ability doesn't explicitly let it. Phasing doesn't help you with grab, but it's probably not a rare house rule for it to work. The rest lose either the ability to act or the ability to move, or both.

Sure it can work once in a blue moon. But because of that rarity, players and DMs will rarely use it.

You say that like it's a bad thing. It shouldn't happen every fight.

 

[KarinsDad]

As others have mentioned, using two move actions to escape has just validated the grab in the first place. I would rerun the numbers with the second character using one escape chance.

Ok.

Example 1: 2 first level Fighters with 18 Str and 12 Dex, neither has Athletics or Acrobatics.

Chance to grab: 70%
Chance to escape: 45% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for one round: 38.5%

If grabbed, chance to restrain as per his house rule: 38.5% * 55% = 21.175%
Chance to escape: 45% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for two rounds: 11.64%

If grabbed, chance to pin as per his house rule: 11.64% * 55% = 6.4%
Chance to escape: 45% with one attempt, 69.75% with two since Fighter #2 can only try to escape at this point

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for three rounds: 1.936%, less than 1 chance in 50


Example 2: 2 first level Fighters with 18 Str and 12 Dex, both have Athletics.

Chance to grab: 70%
Chance to escape: 70% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for one round: 21%

If grabbed, chance to restrain as per his house rule: 21% * 55% = 11.55%
Chance to escape: 70% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for two rounds: 3.465%

If grabbed, chance to pin as per his house rule: 3.465% * 55% = 1.9%
Chance to escape: 70% with one attempt, 91% with two since Fighter #2 can only try to escape at this point

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for three rounds: 0.171%, less than 1 chance in 584


Example 3: 1 first level Fighter with 18 Str grabbing a first level Wizard with 10 Dex, 10 Con, and no skill:

Chance to grab: 75%
Chance to escape: 25% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for one round: 56.25%

If grabbed, chance to restrain as per his house rule: 56.25% * 75% = 42.1875%
Chance to escape: 25% with one attempt

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for two rounds: 31.64%

If grabbed, chance to pin as per his house rule: 31.64% * 75% = 23.7%
Chance to escape: 25% with one attempt, 44.75% with two since the Wizard can only try to escape at this point

Chance for this tactic to be successful for Fighter #1 for three rounds: 13.1%, less than 1 chance in 7 against a super wimpy Wizard


In all of these cases, the attacker barely has a chance to pin the target. The target has multiple chances to attack and damage the attacker. And any successful attack by the defender that moves the attacker or dazes/stuns/knocks unconscious the attacker breaks the grab/restrain/pin. This does even include situations where the target can self teleport or shift with a power.

Explain again how these are good odds for the attacker?

Note: Escape attacks are skill checks, not attack rolls, so they do not get penalized for restrained.

 

[KarinsDad]

You may want to read the beholder more carefully, on that particular objection.

Quote a rule.

Why would you make that assumption when
A) you can dogpile under the normal rules
B) I explicitly talk about using multiple characters on a creature

I made the assumption since I thought you were talking about rolls per opponent (i.e. just because one PC has a monster restrained does not mean that another does not only have him grabbed).

Not quite, but there's a reason I said it was too powerful when I ran the math, yes.

Precisely. If one allows dogpiling, it's broken BECAUSE the pin conditions totally removes all actions (e.g. Teleport or Phasing) except Escape as you wrote it and the pin condition can be applied before the opponent can react. Balance-wise, that's much stronger than many round stun in many cases. That seems unreasonable.

Only three of the creatures can teleport out. The rest are vulnerable, though I'd expect the anathema to commonly be allowed to get out of grab even if the ability doesn't explicitly let it. Phasing doesn't help you with grab, but it's probably not a rare house rule for it to work. The rest lose either the ability to act or the ability to move, or both.

Swarm of Snakes does explicitly allow a shift. That allows auto-escape.

Phasing explicitly allows movement through obstacles and other creatures. If a wall cannot stop phasing, how can a grab?

And Double Attack makes the odds of even one round of Grab working extremely slim.

 

[keterys]

Quote a rule.

'Using eye rays does not provoke opportunity attacks.'

BECAUSE the pin conditions totally removes all actions (e.g. Teleport or Phasing) except Escape as you wrote it

Actually, just all _attacks_.

Swarm of Snakes does explicitly allow a shift. That allows auto-escape.

You can't shift while grabbed or immobilized. Transforming into hundreds of snakes thematically might allow it, but you could easily argue that a bunch of the snakes are still grabbed and the others can't go away and reform without them. Or if it were grabbed by certain effects or other monsters it wouldn't be able to get away that way (gargantuan gelatinous cube, or whatever)

Phasing explicitly allows movement through obstacles and other creatures. If a wall cannot stop phasing, how can a grab?

Because phasing does nothing about grabs as written. At all. It lets you move through obstacles _when moving_, but you can't move while grabbed. A phasing creature can't be phased inside a wall at the end of their action either - it's a lot more restricted than the old incorporeal. Also certain creatures with phasing aren't insubstantial at all (like Shadow Umber Hulks).

And Double Attack makes the odds of even one round of Grab working extremely slim.

If the creature can be pushed away, yes. This isn't possible in some situations due to positioning or gear. For example, the three dwarven fighters I've played with might not move at all to a push 2 at that level.