Going beyond Grab?

[KarinsDad]

'Using eye rays does not provoke opportunity attacks.'

Fair enough.

Actually, just all _attacks_.

k

You can't shift while grabbed or immobilized. Transforming into hundreds of snakes thematically might allow it, but you could easily argue that a bunch of the snakes are still grabbed and the others can't go away and reform without them. Or if it were grabbed by certain effects or other monsters it wouldn't be able to get away that way (gargantuan gelatinous cube, or whatever)

Sorry, I often get Slide and Shift confused. My bad. Old timers disease. A Cleric could use Command on himself to Slide out of a grab for example.

Agreed. Swarm of Snakes does not work.

But, most PCs cannot grab Yuan-Ti Anathema because most PCs are medium and Yuan-Ti Anathema are Huge.

Because phasing does nothing about grabs as written. At all. It lets you move through obstacles _when moving_, but you can't move while grabbed. A phasing creature can't be phased inside a wall at the end of their action either - it's a lot more restricted than the old incorporeal. Also certain creatures with phasing aren't insubstantial at all (like Shadow Umber Hulks).

It's a conflict of rules. Phasing allows movement through creatures. Grabbing disallows movement. One allows. One disallows. Which one trumps? Sounds like the same question as a Wall disallows movement through it. Phasing allows movement through obstacles. Which one trumps?

From a plausibility standpoint, phasing. The opposing ruling is a bit nonsensical. It can move through creatures, but cannot. Huh? The rule is not that it can move through a creatures square, the rule is that it can move through a creature.

If the creature can be pushed away, yes. This isn't possible in some situations due to positioning or gear. For example, the three dwarven fighters I've played with might not move at all to a push 2 at that level.

Last I checked, Dwarves cannot grab Fire Titans because Dwarves are medium and Fire Titans are Huge.

And, the vast majority of creatures (and most situations) are affected by Double Attack. Grab is fairly worthless against a Fire Titan. It has a Reflex of 33. To even grab him, your Fighter example at +17 to hit (if the Fighter was Large) needs a 16 or higher.


Out of that list of 12, 6 are more or less immune to Grab (at least by Medium sized opponents) and 3 although not immune, have other ways besides Escape to get out. Most of these creatures are extremely hard to grab in the first place as well.

Legion Devil Legionnaire Minion 100% Teleport
Ghaele of Winder 100% Teleport
Tormenting Ghost 100% Phasing
Fire Titan 100% Huge
Marut Blademaster 100% Teleport
Yuan-ti Anathema 100% Huge

Larva Mage, 25% chance to Grab, Worm's Feast + 20% Escape

Dark Naga, 25% chance to Grab, Vision of Death + Word of Orcus + 25% Escape

Deathpriest Hierophant, 25% chance to Grab, Lure + Psychic Miasma + 20% Escape (Aura of Decay)


Angel of Valor Legionnaire, 35% chance to Grab, 25% Escape

Wild Hunt Hound 25% chance to Grab, 50% Escape

Giant Mummy, 30% chance to Grab (Despair), 15% Escape


For most of these creatures, it's easier to hit them with a power than it is to grab them.

 

[Walknot]

Could be a good use of Grab is as a readied action?

 

[keterys]

It's a conflict of rules. Phasing allows movement through creatures. Grabbing disallows movement. One allows. One disallows. Which one trumps? Sounds like the same question as a Wall disallows movement through it. Phasing allows movement through obstacles. Which one trumps?

From a plausibility standpoint, phasing. The opposing ruling is a bit nonsensical. It can move through creatures, but cannot. Huh? The rule is not that it can move through a creatures square, the rule is that it can move through a creature.

It's actually not a conflict of rules.

Immobilized "You can't move from your space"

You _can't move_, so the fact that when you move you can move at full speed through obstacles _doesn't matter_. It just never even comes up, same as how fast it is or whether it has forest walk. Logically speaking, it might make sense, but that's not how rules are determined. I'd not be surprised for it to be a common house rule or eventually errata-ed.

That is to say, elves can shift through difficult terrain without penalty. If they're immobilized by an entangle spell, that doesn't mean they can shift out of it. That rule never even gets a chance to come up.

And yeah, grab as a readied can definitely work. It's definitely a special tactic, not something you use against everything.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I would be tempted to use a disease trackish method where the actions of the defender could worsen thier condition..

>Free< - >Grapped< - >Immoblized< - >Restrained<

Acting character choses method for escape/hold. Check is either:
Str vs Static Dex ( 10+ Dex mod )
Dex vs Static Str ( 10+ Str mod )
Acrobatics vs Ref ( opponent gains +3 to defense )
Athletics vs Fort ( opponent gains a +3 to defense )

Fail by 5 or more = worsen
Succeed by 5 or more = improve
Success to Success + 4 = maintain

...or something like that.. perhaps a thread over in HR to discuss?

I like the idea of improving/worsening conditions but I would leave skill rolls out of combat contests ( unless using a system such as GURPS where combats are handled using skills normally)