Going Nuclear:1D&D

[Oofta]

For real! For all the accusations of it being videogamey, 4e is way harder to play virtually than in-person with battle mat and tokens!

Huh. I guess I wouldn't see much of a difference as long as you're using a map. Of course 4E wasn't set up for TotM, but as for the rest I'm not sure what difference it would make.

 

[Nefermandias]

Huh. I guess I wouldn't see much of a difference as long as you're using a map. Of course 4E wasn't set up for TotM, but as for the rest I'm not sure what difference it would make.

Because of all the forced movement, terrain powers and the way encounters were built, it's rather cumbersome to replicate on a VTT. Also, it's nice to have your cards in your hands.

It's hard to explain, but 4e was a very tactile experience.

Now with 5e you can just Google something like "evil temple battlemap", drag into roll 20, put 2d6+3 cultists and one lich in it and you are probably good to go. This approach just doesn't work with 4e.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For me there's also the problem that 4e isn't really good to be played online, contrary to what most people believe. It's so much easier to play 5e if you're going to use a VTT.

Physical minis+dungeon tiles+power cards is the way to go.

I very much disagree with that. If you can get your powers coded up in Roll20, 4e is extremely smooth. It's why I am so sad they never actually made an official 4e VTT. If they had, a LOT of the problems with it would have disappeared.

 

[Charlaquin]

Because of all the forced movement, terrain powers and the way encounters were built, it's rather cumbersome to replicate on a VTT. Also, it's nice to have your cards in your hands.

It's hard to explain, but 4e was a very tactile experience.

Now with 5e you can just Google something like "evil temple battlemap", drag into roll 20, put 2d6+3 cultists and one lich in it and you are probably good to go. This approach just doesn't work with 4e.

Exactly

 

[payn]

I very much disagree with that. If you can get your powers coded up in Roll20, 4e is extremely smooth. It's why I am so sad they never actually made an official 4e VTT. If they had, a LOT of the problems with it would have disappeared.

At the moment, many games seem too difficult for VTT. I blame that largely on the lack of custom built modules available for folks. VTTs can do anything, and do it well, but you have to find it or code it yourself. Most folks seem to lack the know how and/or the time to do it themselves. Thats understandable, though the notion that it "just doesn't work on VTT" seems to be a handwringing of the fact.

 

[Oofta]

Because of all the forced movement, terrain powers and the way encounters were built, it's rather cumbersome to replicate on a VTT. Also, it's nice to have your cards in your hands.

It's hard to explain, but 4e was a very tactile experience.

Now with 5e you can just Google something like "evil temple battlemap", drag into roll 20, put 2d6+3 cultists and one lich in it and you are probably good to go. This approach just doesn't work with 4e.

I guess I just don't see it. I never had character sheets online when I did VTT for 5E. It's not like I check their sheets when we're playing in person either. I'd probably allow players to move tokens for forced movement and environmental factors wouldn't be any different.

With a bit of effort I'm sure someone would figure out a way to handle some of the overhead like ongoing conditions as well.

Not that it matters now, I have no plans on going back to VTT if I can help it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

At the moment, many games seem too difficult for VTT. I blame that largely on the lack of custom built modules available for folks. VTTs can do anything, and do it well, but you have to find it or code it yourself. Most folks seem to lack the know how and/or the time to do it themselves. Thats understandable, though the notion that it "just doesn't work on VTT" seems to be a handwringing of the fact.

It's been like six years since I last touched the Roll20 4e character sheet code stuff, but once you got the hang of it it was actually extremely powerful. I'm almost certain that a user-friendly front end could have been coded for it. And if the VTT had actually been designed for it from the ground up, all the better. Forced movement would have been a vital feature of any such thing (and should be perfectly easy to program on the whole, since you only move integer numbers of squares.) Heck, automatic forced movement for stuff that doesn't require user-selected placement (e.g. an AoE push effect) could probably be handled automatically, and a really good VTT would let you rewind turns or rounds with the click of a button.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

For me there's also the problem that 4e isn't really good to be played online, contrary to what most people believe. It's so much easier to play 5e if you're going to use a VTT.

Physical minis+dungeon tiles+power cards is the way to go.

yes I agree 4e is much better in person and 5e is the easier of the two to play on a VTT... funny, its the video game edition

 

[payn]

It's been like six years since I last touched the Roll20 4e character sheet code stuff, but once you got the hang of it it was actually extremely powerful. I'm almost certain that a user-friendly front end could have been coded for it. And if the VTT had actually been designed for it from the ground up, all the better. Forced movement would have been a vital feature of any such thing (and should be perfectly easy to program on the whole, since you only move integer numbers of squares.) Heck, automatic forced movement for stuff that doesn't require user-selected placement (e.g. an AoE push effect) could probably be handled automatically, and a really good VTT would let you rewind turns or rounds with the click of a button.

Absolutely. I think many folks don't think things can work on a VTT because they don't want to use it in the first place. That's fine for a preference but its not a fact of capability.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I thought it was an advanced form of the old D&D miniatures game.

Has some influence I suppose from video games eg encounter powers are essentially cooldowns.

Apart from that ...

I mean the funny part is those video games were influenced by those games, then the evolution of those games get said to be copping them...

It's like people that say Tolkien is so cliché and paint by numbers all fantasy has X Y and Z... but those became cliché AFTER he wrote that.

 

[Nefermandias]

Absolutely. I think many folks don't think things can work on a VTT because they don't want to use it in the first place. That's fine for a preference but its not a fact of capability.

That's probably right, but I guarantee it's not the case for my group. I am very comfortable with Roll20, my account is almost 9 years old and I have Pro subscription.

Our current 5e game makes extensive use of API scripts, dynamic lighting and all those nice resources you can find on the Roll20 community.

For instance, we have automation for turn tracking, applying damage, showing colored auras around the tokens to track HP, we use SmartAoE to automatically place effects, roll saving throws and apply conditions... My script library is currently running dozens of scripts and we make really good use of macros.

Even with all that, I still believe that 5e is so much easier to run online compared to 4e. Maybe just my personal opinion though.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Huh. I guess I wouldn't see much of a difference as long as you're using a map. Of course 4E wasn't set up for TotM, but as for the rest I'm not sure what difference it would make.

useing a battle map is cool, but it's not THAT hard to run TotM but I can't imagine filling out a roll20 character sheet for 4e... I'm going to create a 4e game and try to make 3 pregens and see how hard it is.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I very much disagree with that. If you can get your powers coded up in Roll20, 4e is extremely smooth. It's why I am so sad they never actually made an official 4e VTT. If they had, a LOT of the problems with it would have disappeared.

yeah... it's codeing all those powers I think is going to be the sink.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's probably right, but I guarantee it's not the case for my group. I am very comfortable with Roll20, my account is almost 9 years old and I have Pro subscription.

Our current 5e game makes extensive use of API scripts, dynamic lighting and all those nice resources you can find on the Roll20 community.

For instance, we have automation for turn tracking, applying damage, showing colored auras around the tokens to track HP, we use SmartAoE to automatically place effects, roll saving throws and apply conditions... My script library is currently running dozens of scripts and we make really good use of macros.

Even with all that, I still believe that 5e is so much easier to run online compared to 4e. Maybe just my personal opinion though.

dude we should start a separate roll20 thread (maybe a nice sunny break from all the doom and gloom)

 

[payn]

useing a battle map is cool, but it's not THAT hard to run TotM but I can't imagine filling out a roll20 character sheet for 4e... I'm going to create a 4e game and try to make 3 pregens and see how hard it is.

Ever use Foundry? I know you are not fond of PF2, but its similar to 4E and it works like a charm. Not many PF fans will even use Roll20 anymore.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Ever use Foundry? I know you are not fond of PF2, but its similar to 4E and it works like a charm. Not many PF fans will even use Roll20 anymore.

Do you know if it has 4e integration options? The main draw of R20 at this point is that someone already made a programmable character sheet (and, at least for me, I was able to code up all my powers to work nearly automatically.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

The universe knows I'm boycotting.

Walked into one of our FLGS's and they had a copy of the alt cover of Eberron: Rising From the Last War and a deal on the Brother's War booster boxen. Not that they care, but I got my year-end bonus Friday and WotC lost an easy $200.

I bought Beast Boy Loves Raven and a couple of Teen Titans trades at the comic shop next door instead to reward DC for formally killing the Snyderverse instead.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ever use Foundry? I know you are not fond of PF2, but its similar to 4E and it works like a charm. Not many PF fans will even use Roll20 anymore.

no, when covid hit we went Roll20, and still don't fully understand how to use it... but more and more it is looking like it will be VTT for a while at least.

 

[payn]

Do you know if it has 4e integration options? The main draw of R20 at this point is that someone already made a programmable character sheet (and, at least for me, I was able to code up all my powers to work nearly automatically.)

I don't know offhand, but would be surprised if there wasnt.
Edit: there is indeed a 4E module.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't know offhand, but would be surprised if there wasnt.
Edit: there is indeed a 4E module.

Cool, I went looking and came up empty (the search function is...not the best.) Send me a link if you can. Perhaps this is a purchase in my future.