TheAuldGrump
First Post
Freakin frakkin hanging post....
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Pathfinder 1E (Golarion) Cannons?
- Thread starter DragonLancer
- Start date
DragonLancer
Hero
Dissapeared for a good few hours on me last night.
IronWolf
blank
Yeah, EN World was completely unreliable for me for most of yesterday afternoon and evening. Even times I could browse the site at a crawl if I tried to post it would not seem to accept the post.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Whoa, speak of the Devil and the Devil appears....
World Works is having a sale on The Maiden (pictured above) and the Canals/Docks sets in a bundle for $8 - less than half the cost of the Maiden alone!
If you want a ship to go with your campaign, I really can't recommend The Maiden any more strenuously.
It is a beautiful model.
*EDIT* Found a picture with both The Maiden and the docks.
Fat Dragon has also released a ship - a cog rather than a brigantine. Smaller, but might make a good 'starter ship' until the party can upgrade to something a bit more lethal.
To be fair - there is about three hundred years of ship design between a 14th century cog and a 17th century brigantine.
The Auld Grump
World Works is having a sale on The Maiden (pictured above) and the Canals/Docks sets in a bundle for $8 - less than half the cost of the Maiden alone!
If you want a ship to go with your campaign, I really can't recommend The Maiden any more strenuously.
It is a beautiful model.*EDIT* Found a picture with both The Maiden and the docks.
Fat Dragon has also released a ship - a cog rather than a brigantine. Smaller, but might make a good 'starter ship' until the party can upgrade to something a bit more lethal.
To be fair - there is about three hundred years of ship design between a 14th century cog and a 17th century brigantine.
The Auld Grump
Last edited:
DragonLancer
Hero
That's a great find!
Grue
First Post
Heh... normally I try to keep the blinders on when it comes to realism for a fantasy setting but technology discussions always tear them off.
I try to keep my games interally consistent as far as the settings go (even though most of my players really don't care about the political lay of the land for the most part until some baron tries to tax them;-). But guns, plus the fairly 'westernized' state\culture of most of Golarion, plus printing press.... I don't think 100 years or 4000 years is gonna make a huge difference in the rarity of guns and having it hang logically.
Either magic has to be a whole lot more common and easier to learn or guns will be (or become) a lot more common.
If a spell lobber has to spend years learning how to throw a fireball, it might make more economic sense to spend a few weeks training soldiers how to operate and fire a cannon. Given the high quality metallurgy available in Golarion, I'd have to say that it'd be pretty unrealistic that their cannon would be less reliable than our actual historical artillery.
For firearms it's the same problem the Japanese had... arquebus armed ashigaru peasant foot troops pretty much negated the years of martial training of the samurai. Japan in the 16th century was most likely producing the best guns in the world and had more of them than anybody else IIRC.
<quick google search>
Arquebuses were introduced to Japan in 1543 by Portuguese traders (Fernão Mendes Pinto), who landed by accident on Tanegashima, an island south of Kyūshū in the region controlled by the Shimazu clan. By 1550, copies of the Portuguese arquebus were being produced in large quantities, and they were often seen on the battlefields all over Japan. Oda Nobunaga revolutionized musket tactics in Japan by splitting loaders and shooters and assigning three guns to a shooter at the Battle of Nagashino in 1575.
Just doesn't fit in a logical consistent manner that even in magical areas, that it wouldn't eventually be recognized that those 'dangerous' and 'unrealiable' guns fired enmasse by peasantry with a few weeks of training wouldn't be more economical than keeping all those mages on the state's payroll. No doubt they would keep some magical support but most of the Golarion states aren't backward...
I try to keep my games interally consistent as far as the settings go (even though most of my players really don't care about the political lay of the land for the most part until some baron tries to tax them;-). But guns, plus the fairly 'westernized' state\culture of most of Golarion, plus printing press.... I don't think 100 years or 4000 years is gonna make a huge difference in the rarity of guns and having it hang logically.
Either magic has to be a whole lot more common and easier to learn or guns will be (or become) a lot more common.
If a spell lobber has to spend years learning how to throw a fireball, it might make more economic sense to spend a few weeks training soldiers how to operate and fire a cannon. Given the high quality metallurgy available in Golarion, I'd have to say that it'd be pretty unrealistic that their cannon would be less reliable than our actual historical artillery.
For firearms it's the same problem the Japanese had... arquebus armed ashigaru peasant foot troops pretty much negated the years of martial training of the samurai. Japan in the 16th century was most likely producing the best guns in the world and had more of them than anybody else IIRC.
<quick google search>
Arquebuses were introduced to Japan in 1543 by Portuguese traders (Fernão Mendes Pinto), who landed by accident on Tanegashima, an island south of Kyūshū in the region controlled by the Shimazu clan. By 1550, copies of the Portuguese arquebus were being produced in large quantities, and they were often seen on the battlefields all over Japan. Oda Nobunaga revolutionized musket tactics in Japan by splitting loaders and shooters and assigning three guns to a shooter at the Battle of Nagashino in 1575.
Just doesn't fit in a logical consistent manner that even in magical areas, that it wouldn't eventually be recognized that those 'dangerous' and 'unrealiable' guns fired enmasse by peasantry with a few weeks of training wouldn't be more economical than keeping all those mages on the state's payroll. No doubt they would keep some magical support but most of the Golarion states aren't backward...
DragonLancer
Hero
I can see firearms being more common that described but very very expensive. Golarion seems very metallurgical and renassiance in feel. I can see more "advanced" nations such as Andoran using firearms in it's military but I don't really see them in the hands of civilians. A firearm may do more damage but it's not as easy to use, reload...etc as a bow or crossbow.
Grue
First Post
Well wheel-locks were expensive, basically clockwork gearing and precison restricted their use to the aristocracy and on small scale. But they were not as vulnerable to the rain or the damp (as a side note I think I remember there was some crossover between the clockmaking industry with the Swiss).
Matchlocks by comparison are fairly straightforward designs. Arquebuses even more basic (and dangerous). Considering the advanced trapmaking industry of Golarion, making a mechanism with a trigger and a moveable lever shouldn't be state of the art technology. Making metal tubes, basic matchlock guts, and a wooden stock shouldn't be too expensive either...cheaper when the economy of scale kicks in. And given the extremely advanced case of alchemy on Golarion...heh.
As far as weapon damage, I'm not sure I'd inflate the killing power of a early gun vs that of an arrow fired by a highly trained bowman. I'm pretty sure the bow's effective range is longer at that tech level. And as far as physical trauma inflicted IIRC the arrow still wins.
<snippet from wiki>
Although longbows were much faster and more accurate than the black powder weapons which replaced them, longbowmen were always difficult to produce, because of the years of practice necessary before a war longbow could be used effectively (examples of longbows from the Mary Rose typically had draws greater than 637 N (143 lbf)). In an era in which warfare was usually seasonal and non-noble soldiers spent part of the year working at farms, the year-round training required for the effective use of the longbow was a challenge. A standing army was an expensive proposition to a medieval ruler. Mainland European armies seldom trained a significant longbow corps. Due to their specialized training, English longbowmen were sought as mercenaries in other European countries, most notably in the Italian city-states and in Spain. The White Company,[27] containing men-at-arms and longbowmen and commanded by Sir John Hawkwood, is the best known English Free Company of the 14th century. The powerful Hungarian king, Louis the Great, is an example of someone who used longbowmen in his Italian campaigns.
The trade of yew wood to England for longbows was such that it depleted the stocks of yew over a huge area. The first documented import of yew bowstaves to England was in 1294. In 1350 there was a serious shortage, and Henry IV of England ordered his royal bowyer to enter private land and cut yew and other woods. In 1470 compulsory practice was renewed, and hazel, ash, and laburnum were specifically allowed for practice bows. Supplies still proved insufficient, until by the Statute of Westminster in 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun. Richard III of England increased this to ten for every tun. This stimulated a vast network of extraction and supply, which formed part of royal monopolies in southern Germany and Austria. In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians obtained sixteen pounds per hundred. In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew, but the trade was profitable, and in 1532 the royal monopoly was granted for the usual quantity "if there are that many". In 1562, the Bavarian government sent a long plea to the Holy Roman Emperor asking him to stop the cutting of yew, and outlining the damage done to the forests by its selective extraction, which broke the canopy and allowed wind to destroy neighbouring trees. In 1568, despite a request from Saxony, no royal monopoly was granted because there was no yew to cut, and the next year Bavaria and Austria similarly failed to produce enough yew to justify a royal monopoly. Forestry records in this area in the 17th century do not mention yew, and it seems that no mature trees were to be had. The English tried to obtain supplies from the Baltic, but at this period bows were being replaced by guns in any case
The professional vagabond psycho-killers with bags of gold known as 'adventurers' may not bother with guns because they would gravitate to the weapons with the best killing power and utility (damp conditions like dungeons are bad for firearms as I'd imagine getting caught in a fireball wouldn't be ideal). Maybe Golarion states are a fairly peacable bunch or only hire professional soldiers to fight wars.
Thinking about it, I would probably move most firearms out of the 'exotic weapons category'. It's not a complicated weapon to teach or employ...sword fighting is a lot harder to master. The prices for firearms seem way out of line considering they aren't terribly complicated mechanisms crafted from expensive materials...definitely not more than plate mail armor... regardless of the lack of supply (and I doubt they're status symbol demand items).
On damage... I'd probably cut down on inflating the damage. Getting a spear in the gut, arrow to the chest, or forearm hacked off with an axe seems just as traumatic so cutting down on the deadliness would be in keeping with the hit point system.
Matchlocks by comparison are fairly straightforward designs. Arquebuses even more basic (and dangerous). Considering the advanced trapmaking industry of Golarion, making a mechanism with a trigger and a moveable lever shouldn't be state of the art technology. Making metal tubes, basic matchlock guts, and a wooden stock shouldn't be too expensive either...cheaper when the economy of scale kicks in. And given the extremely advanced case of alchemy on Golarion...heh.
As far as weapon damage, I'm not sure I'd inflate the killing power of a early gun vs that of an arrow fired by a highly trained bowman. I'm pretty sure the bow's effective range is longer at that tech level. And as far as physical trauma inflicted IIRC the arrow still wins.
<snippet from wiki>
Although longbows were much faster and more accurate than the black powder weapons which replaced them, longbowmen were always difficult to produce, because of the years of practice necessary before a war longbow could be used effectively (examples of longbows from the Mary Rose typically had draws greater than 637 N (143 lbf)). In an era in which warfare was usually seasonal and non-noble soldiers spent part of the year working at farms, the year-round training required for the effective use of the longbow was a challenge. A standing army was an expensive proposition to a medieval ruler. Mainland European armies seldom trained a significant longbow corps. Due to their specialized training, English longbowmen were sought as mercenaries in other European countries, most notably in the Italian city-states and in Spain. The White Company,[27] containing men-at-arms and longbowmen and commanded by Sir John Hawkwood, is the best known English Free Company of the 14th century. The powerful Hungarian king, Louis the Great, is an example of someone who used longbowmen in his Italian campaigns.
The trade of yew wood to England for longbows was such that it depleted the stocks of yew over a huge area. The first documented import of yew bowstaves to England was in 1294. In 1350 there was a serious shortage, and Henry IV of England ordered his royal bowyer to enter private land and cut yew and other woods. In 1470 compulsory practice was renewed, and hazel, ash, and laburnum were specifically allowed for practice bows. Supplies still proved insufficient, until by the Statute of Westminster in 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun. Richard III of England increased this to ten for every tun. This stimulated a vast network of extraction and supply, which formed part of royal monopolies in southern Germany and Austria. In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians obtained sixteen pounds per hundred. In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew, but the trade was profitable, and in 1532 the royal monopoly was granted for the usual quantity "if there are that many". In 1562, the Bavarian government sent a long plea to the Holy Roman Emperor asking him to stop the cutting of yew, and outlining the damage done to the forests by its selective extraction, which broke the canopy and allowed wind to destroy neighbouring trees. In 1568, despite a request from Saxony, no royal monopoly was granted because there was no yew to cut, and the next year Bavaria and Austria similarly failed to produce enough yew to justify a royal monopoly. Forestry records in this area in the 17th century do not mention yew, and it seems that no mature trees were to be had. The English tried to obtain supplies from the Baltic, but at this period bows were being replaced by guns in any case
The professional vagabond psycho-killers with bags of gold known as 'adventurers' may not bother with guns because they would gravitate to the weapons with the best killing power and utility (damp conditions like dungeons are bad for firearms as I'd imagine getting caught in a fireball wouldn't be ideal). Maybe Golarion states are a fairly peacable bunch or only hire professional soldiers to fight wars
.Thinking about it, I would probably move most firearms out of the 'exotic weapons category'. It's not a complicated weapon to teach or employ...sword fighting is a lot harder to master. The prices for firearms seem way out of line considering they aren't terribly complicated mechanisms crafted from expensive materials...definitely not more than plate mail armor... regardless of the lack of supply (and I doubt they're status symbol demand items).
On damage... I'd probably cut down on inflating the damage. Getting a spear in the gut, arrow to the chest, or forearm hacked off with an axe seems just as traumatic so cutting down on the deadliness would be in keeping with the hit point system.
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