D&D 5E Goldilocks Poll: Counterspell

[Shadowdweller00]

Good blend of power and limitation, as long as the DM is not a phallus about it. The one I have some (minor issues) with is Dispel Magic: It's a little too easy to dispel ancient magicks cast by the Uber-Wizards of Legend that have endured for eons. Not an insurmountable issue, just an annoyance.

 

[ccooke]

... So, I was curious about why people think it's been nerfed.

Let's see. I don't have my old 4e books to hand here, but I can see a few people saying "No counterspells in 4e" on this forum back in 2010. Some digging finds a couple of specific things that look like homebrew, but it looks fair to say that a generic counterspell that was available to roughly every Arcane caster was not a thing in 4e at all. So, by its mere existence, the 5e version is infinitely more powerful.

Let's see - Pathfinder looks to not have changed much from 3.5e based on the SRDs, so: In 3.5/PF you declare that you are counterspelling a particular target, need to make a Spellcraft check (which, with a range of 15-24, will edge into the "impossible to fail" territory after a few levels) and then cast either a) The same spell the opponent cast, b) A spell that explicitly counters the opponent's spell or c) Dispel Magic, which has a failure chance.
Compare this to 5e: You don't need to pre-declare or use your action. You don't know the spell being cast, but counterspell automatically counters anything lower level than the slot it's in. It has a chance to counter anything higher.
Not knowing the spell is a nerf - you might waste your spell. However, not having to use your action and nominate a single target means you won't ever waste your turn because that target didn't cast a spell. Not having to have the right spell prepared (or resort to Dispel Magic) means you always have a solid chance of countering the spell. Plus, with 5e spell preparation, countering a spell doesn't potentially use up your ability to counterspell for the rest of the day.

My recollection of 1e and 2e are broadly "If you can act before they finish, you can interrupt their casting while it happens", with a few options for it. That's close enough to the 5e system, really. However, 5e does not depend on turn order or initiative bonus, and does not potentially prevent you from casting the spell again later.

Basically, I'm saying that the 5e version is more generally useful and more powerful than the implementations in AD&D (at least, 2e), 3e or 4e. From that viewpoint, the inability to tell what the spell is before you counterspell is for balance, to prevent it from becoming overpowered.

 

[ccooke]

Good blend of power and limitation, as long as the DM is not a phallus about it. The one I have some (minor issues) is Dispel Magic: It's a little too easy to dispel ancient magicks cast by the Uber-Wizards of Legend that have endured for eons. Not an insurmountable issue, just an annoyance.

Easy enough for the GM to say "Old spells resist more", and either have it suppressed briefly or "You can't dispel this with the standard spell". Depending on how rare higher level casters are, though, I'd probably just say "This effect is resistant to dispel, and can only be removed with a level [7,8,9] slot"

 

[ccooke]

FWIW, there's a magic item that I have handed (... well, the party had to kill a higher-level wizard who had it) out in one of my games where spell battles are common:

The Counter's Shield (Requires attunement)
(A smooth stone brooch in the shape of a shield, polished to a dark mirror shine)

This magical focus enhances your ability to sense magic close to you. It requires a certain amount of talent to use, but it can be an invaluable aid to magical combat.

While attuned to this brooch, you gain the following effects depending on your Intelligence[Arcana] bonus:

With a bonus of 4+, you automatically know the magic school of any spell you can sense being cast within 30' of you. You must already be aware of the spell being cast to know the school.
With a bonus of 8+, you can know either the school (as above) or whether a standard (3rd level slot) counterspell would automatically cancel the spell.
With a bonus of 12+, you know both the school and whether you need a higher powered slot to guarantee a counter. You also automatically become aware of any spell being cast within 15' of you, although if the caster is hidden you do not detect their presence. You may attempt to counter such a spell, if you wish.

(Yes, expertise works well with this. It's a relatively high level item that's designed to make a caster better at spell battle; it's roughly equivalent to a mid-level magic weapon for spell battles alone. The range reduction balances it well enough, I think)

 

[jasper]

Hey I have LONG GLOWING YELLOW LOCKS. My wife is going to be happy. But I lost $8 on buying Just for Men Brown.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't think it's a terrible spell, I just don't think the mechanics of the spell are so well done that it wouldn't be revisited in a hypothetical 6e. It's good enough design right now, not good design.

 

[Krachek]

DnD is a cool game that allow Goldilocks to say “ho what a nice spell that allow me to know the spell I will counter“. If you feel good about allowing to know the spell you will counter than just allow it and take a nap in the bed.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I'd like to add that remove curse is a stupidly worded spell. Taken at face value, even an archdevil's curse can be completely removed by a 3rd-level spell, no check.

 

[jgsugden]

I don't find it a problem. Countering a spell as a PC is a heroic thing. It makes them feel cool. I mostly see DMs complaining that their spellcasters are being beaten by Counterspell too often - and that, to me, misses the point of the game. The heroes are supposed to be effective heroes.

In my setting:

• If you know a spell (or knew it previously), you recognize it being cast. Druids and Clerics know all spells on their list. Wizards know all the ones they have copied, etc...
• If you have not ever known the spell, but it is on your spell list, you get a free action arcana/religion/nature roll to identify it. You do not get to know what spell level is being used to cast it.
• Counterspell functions as normal.
• Deflection is a common homebrew spell. It works like counterspell, but is fifth level. However, you have the option of allowing the spell to complete, but selecting a new target for the spell instead of countering it.
• Steal Spell is another common homebrew spell of level 6. It works like counterspell as well, but instead of countering it you can steal the spell. While stolen (which requires concentration) you can cast the spell as if it were cast by the original caster. If your concentration is broken, the spell goes off on a target selected by the DM (usually you).
• Spell Defense is a 3rd level spell (no concentration, 1 hour) that adds three spell levels to your spell for purposes of attempts to counter or dispel it. You can upcast it to further increase the effective spell level for these purposes.
• Counter Master is a 5th level spell. It requires concentration and allows you to attempt to counter any spell cast within 60 feet of you without using your reaction. There is no upcast, and no spell is automatically countered (you have to roll for cantrips, 1st and 2nd level spells).
• Spell Suspension is a 4th level spell with no concentration and lasts for 1 minute It automatically counters one spell of 4th level or lower (selected when Spell Suspension is cast) whenever it is cast within the 60 foot radius of the spell. Counterspell is a commonly selected spell.

Additionally, there are counters to Counterspell magics that wizards employ to avoid being countered. Some of the built in options are discussed above (invisibility, heavy obscurement (if you can see through it or do not need to do so) [clarification: LOS is not required, but being able to cast it without someone knowing it is cast is effective], being outside counterspell range, countering the counterspell, globe of invulnerability ('houseruled' to allow it to stop counterspell)), but there are also some specific countermeasures from my world (common unattuned magic items that treat spells you cast as 1 spell levels higher for purposes of counterspell or dispel magic type spells, with uncommon (3 levels), rare (4 levels), very rare (5 levels) and legendary (7 levels) equivalents), spells that change the effective distance between you and a specific target, etc...)

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Counterspell is a spell that makes you not play D&D while you're playing D&D. At this point, I won't use it as a DM unless my players do so first. During Tomb of Annihilation, I got so fed up with the spell after the fight with about four Red Wizards with counterspell and three spellcasters that could also counterspell on the other side. When you get into counterspelling counterspell's counterspell, that's just not fun anymore.

• Too toxic: This porridge is actually radioactive sludge.

It isn't that it's too powerful or too weak. It's that the whole design of the spell is bad. It encourages casters to burn through their resources even faster (like they needed any more encouragement to do that), and the result is a whole bunch of nothing happening, which makes for SUPER EXCITING COMBATS, guys.

My preference would be to just have the Ready action be used for it. Costing an action and a reaction makes it more of a tactical gamble than just blasting it off with a reaction. That way you have to think about whether it's worth it to spend your whole turn negating someone else's.

Just add reaction cast time option to Dispel magic for counterspelling usage.