Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
DracoSuave
First Post
1d6+stuff does more than 1d10+stuff? Do bear in mind, we're working with a staff here, not a hammer. That changes the deal.
I know the usual buffing tricks with ironbands of power, but bracers of archery do that for Eldritch Blast for less of a bonus. So you can get the same bonus at the same level.
And, if you're in melee range, wouldn't you want to Hellish Rebuke to provoke an OA to give you damage that triggers your previous Hellish Rebuke?
I'm curious where this magical extra 2 points of damage Eldritch Strike is coming from here that catches it up to Eldritch Blast.
Draco: obviously, if you've switched to staff tricks, the numbers change a lot, that was why I went "-if- you stick with eldritch strike after switching to staff/staff fighting in paragon". Also, Staff does d8 (which is still less than d10, yes, but not less than 10 +3 prof vs AC). Actually...Strike is still more damage if you consider range/melee a wash with a staff (given that you have another ranged option, and are weaplamenting anyway). +2 prof vs AC a reflex attack is a wash, sure -- but the abilitiy to flank and charge makes a -huge- difference to your effective damage; more, (given that the forced movement can also get you out of melee) than you get from another ranged option vs reflex.
To put it another way:
Eldritch Blast is the equivalent to "I make a basic attack with my longbow"; a pure replacement sop to warlocks for not otherwise having a ranged basic. It's junk -- but if you can't wield a decent weapon anyway, it's probably worth it, particularly for non-infernallocks.
By contrast, Eldritch Strike is among the top 10 melee at wills in the game. Yes, Twin Strike and Righeous Brand and Magic Weapon are better. But Overwhelming Strike, Footwork Lure, Tide of Iron? All strictly worse, and doubly so (more limited, not a basic attack). So if it fits into your build, it's almost certainly worth taking.
To put it another way:
Eldritch Blast is the equivalent to "I make a basic attack with my longbow"; a pure replacement sop to warlocks for not otherwise having a ranged basic. It's junk -- but if you can't wield a decent weapon anyway, it's probably worth it, particularly for non-infernallocks.
By contrast, Eldritch Strike is among the top 10 melee at wills in the game. Yes, Twin Strike and Righeous Brand and Magic Weapon are better. But Overwhelming Strike, Footwork Lure, Tide of Iron? All strictly worse, and doubly so (more limited, not a basic attack). So if it fits into your build, it's almost certainly worth taking.
DracoSuave
First Post
Huh?
Alright, going over this again.
d8 vs AC (+2 prof) is not a wash with d10 vs Reflex. That's less damage.
With Hellish Rebuke:
Eldritch Strike isn't more damage than Hellish Rebuke if you can expect to be damaged. Given that you're in melee, you can trigger an opportunity attack which triggers the last round's Hellish Rebuke by casting Hellish Rebuke. So you're not using this melee strike... because you're using the warlock equivalent to Twin Strike.
And when you're not in melee, and you're not expecting to be damaged, Eldritch Blast is flat out more damage. Period. Iron Armbands of Power is inferior to Bracers of the Perfect Shot for a warlock.
With Eyes of the Vestige:
Eyes of the Vestige is always better. Yes, I'd take Eldritch Strike in this case simply because I'd want the push to keep me moving. But I don't ever need to get in close because I always have Prime Shot active no matter what.
With Dire Radiance:
Generally, you're using it on monsters that are far from the party and need to close in, rather than on monsters you're engaging personally. You're not doing a lot of in-their-face shinanegans, so you're better off with Eldritch Blast.
Well, yes.
But this -still- ends up being extremely situational.
First, all things being equal, ranged attacks are better than melee attacks.
Not going to list the reasons, but they're obvious. But that said, melee basic attacks have a huge number of advantages:
1. It's easier to get extra attacks. Yes, there are now leaders that hand out ranged basics or ranged attacks, but they're still a lot less common than leaders that hand out MBAs, not to mention OAs.
2. Doesn't draw OA. (I don't buy the HR argument and don't like sacrificial builds in general, except maybe "I'll get some temp hps and sac them against minions for real damage to a controller or elite" Avenger builds, as the whole point of taking a monster down faster is making them do -less- damage overall, but regardless, having an option to avoid OA is good).
3. It's easier to get combat advantage. Flanking and CA vs prone are both pretty easy.
4. Tactically useful -- getting into melee lets you hand out flanking, pin a monster, and charge for that sometimes-critical +1 to hit.
Now, your average warlock, at 1st level, with no weapon better than a staff? Should probably take Eldritch Blast, not strike -- despite, as I say above, EB being a crutch that gives a warlock the equivalent of an arcane longbow weapon which uses CON or CHA rather than Dex -- because all the other warlock at-will attacks are situational. so Eldritch Blast will frequently be the warlock's highest damage attack -- particularly at low levels where the character has to resort to an at-will frequently.
However, we're not talking about your average warlock. We're discussing two situations:
1. Goliath Warlock at heroic levels: Should clearly take Eldritch Strike -- because she's not going to be hitting with a staff; she's going to be closing in and taking out foes with a greatsword or falchion. After all, that's pretty clear the primary reason to play Goliath warlock, and +3 2d4hc or +3 d10 melee -is- more damage than 1d10 vs reflex no matter how you slice it.
2. Goliath Warlock at paragon levels, having switched to staff for SF/TWP (though we've more or less established that given the stat/feat load, you're probably just better off not going this road). Here you mght be tempted to switch to EB when you switch to staff - but I'd argue that that's a mistake, if one that probably won't matter. At paragon levels, you're going to have 3 daily powers and 4 encounter powers. All of those powers will be Close, Ranged, or Area (and the vast majority of them will be Ranged). I haven't played at paragon levels yet, but I've gotten into high heroic, and in my experience, with optimized parties, most foes fall over in the first 3-4 rounds. So most combats, you're not even going to get into at-wills unless you take situational (or immediate interrupt) encounter powers, and when you do, you're just not going to use them that often before the combat is over (even with an action point). So your second at-will (keeping in mind that your path at-will is going to be ranged anyway) might as well be one that covers the places where you're weak -- which is easily going to be the melee case (or one where you could use an at-will forced movement -- which on many maps will do a lot more than 1 damage on average), not the ranged case where during most rounds in a fight you're going to have an encounter attack that you can use instead, or your path at-will which is good enough (and often, despite doing less damage on the die, better).
Oh, absolutely (though Goliath monks only have Str re monk stats). In general, GWP is strong for implement users that can use a GWP-type as an implement -- I picked warlock because it was the only class I could think of that could get a GWP as an implement -and- had Str or Con as an attack stat.
Goliath assassins...
DracoSuave
First Post
Yeah, I forgot completely about the greatsword of ruin or the falchion of ruin.
Wait, those don't exist.
Still gonna have to go with Staff on this one.
If you're going for a damage build with a goliath, it's Staff of Ruin as your implement (of course), with Arcane Imp prof, GGWP as your first two feats, which makes that Eldritch Blast 1d10+3 vs Reflex as opposed to 1d10+2 vs AC. Then, moving along, you get a Pact Dagger +1 in your other hand and Dual Implement to up it to 1d10+4, which culminates in Staff Fighting (so you only have to acquire Staff of Ruin), and at Paragon, you're at 1d10+9 vs 1d10+6.
The difference is non-trivial.
Er, what? Draco, I don't see where you're getting the extra +1 damage in heroic, unless you're assuming a staff of ruin acquisition early in heroic. Regardless, while yes, you definitely get more damage out of SoR + (eventually) staff fighting, I'm not convinced its worth the investiment -- you're spending 4 stat points that are otherwise useless (which gives you what? a 18/15/12/1210/8 array?) I'm not convinced that the pact dagger trick works -- I don't think that a staff counts as a two handed weapon when you're wielding it solely as a one handed implement.
Basically, while you can, yes, pump another 1-2 damage out in heroic by going staff of ruin (until they provide ways to do this with a weapon, at least -- thought SoR, given its crit die, is head and shoulders above a normal weapliment), but given versitility, the power an at-will melee slide gives you, and the fact that you can pretty easily catch up with a radiant greatsword in paragon (which goes trivially to 1d10+10 in early Paragon with a shard--more if you do something with the feats you're saving).
Also, even discounting the slide (which you can't, really), 1d10+3, +0 vs reflex isn't actually better than 1d10+2, +3 vs AC -- its worse (and less reliable). Yes, with two defenses to play with this changes a lot, but AC is still more or less the most reliable defense if you have a good proficiency mod.
Basically, while you can, yes, pump another 1-2 damage out in heroic by going staff of ruin (until they provide ways to do this with a weapon, at least -- thought SoR, given its crit die, is head and shoulders above a normal weapliment), but given versitility, the power an at-will melee slide gives you, and the fact that you can pretty easily catch up with a radiant greatsword in paragon (which goes trivially to 1d10+10 in early Paragon with a shard--more if you do something with the feats you're saving).
Also, even discounting the slide (which you can't, really), 1d10+3, +0 vs reflex isn't actually better than 1d10+2, +3 vs AC -- its worse (and less reliable). Yes, with two defenses to play with this changes a lot, but AC is still more or less the most reliable defense if you have a good proficiency mod.
