D&D 5E Good-Aligned Antagonists

[FormerlyHemlock]

By setting themselves aside from all other races and deciding that they're the ones who deserve to survive, aren't these elves also imposing their own value system on others, and not only judging but also condemning and executing them?

By eating the flesh of other animals, aren't you imposing your own value system on animals, by deciding that your enjoyment is more important than their lives?

It's not as simple as you're trying to pretend.

- Reframe the genocidal aspect to "culls against an invasive species". Humanoids (except for elves, which are nature's custodians or something) are nothing but a different type of beast. It's morally good to keep an invasive species from overrunning an environment. "For the good of this land, for the good of the Mother Spirit that sustains and guides all elf-kind, we must keep their numbers down! We drow once failed to uphold our duty to preserve this world, and look where that decision has brought us! We will not fail again!"

Pretty much this, but with more regret and less glee. More like someone caught in a Trolley Problem (save your kids, or the humans' kids) than a zealot.

There may even be factions of drow who are content to sterilize the humans instead of exterminating them.

*Edit: main point is this... just because they're Good, it doesn't mean they're Right. "The road to hell..." and all that.

Yes, exactly.

 

[MarkB]

By eating the flesh of other animals, aren't you imposing your own value system on animals, by deciding that your enjoyment is more important than their lives?

Yes. But I'm not pretending to be either lawful or good.

 

[Caliban]

Yes. But I'm not pretending to be either lawful or good.

So only vegans can be Lawful Good?

(Not trying to pile on, I just couldn't pass up a straight line like that.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, genocidal racists are Lawful Good?

They may think they are, at least...

So only vegans can be Lawful Good?

They may think so, at least....

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yes. But I'm not pretending to be either lawful or good.

Can Lawful Good PCs be meat-eaters?

Edit: ninja'ed twice over.

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[MarkB]

Can Lawful Good PCs be meat-eaters?

Edit: ninja'ed twice over.

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Alignment is neither absolute nor monolithic. It's possible to believe that participating tacitly in the mass slaughter of millions of creatures is at least somewhat evil without believing that an individual is evil - or even non-good - because of it. Their virtues may very well overwhelm that vice. I do consider it to be a minor evil, though I indulge in it myself.

It may be humanocentric of me, but I also consider the mass slaughter of millions of sentient beings to be a far greater evil, one that would be nigh-impossible to overwhelm through even the most otherwise-virtuous existence. Clearly we disagree, but I'd like to believe that my viewpoint on that matter is not so eccentric or uncommon as to be considered merely an arbitrary imposition of my own value system.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Alignment is neither absolute nor monolithic. It's possible to believe that participating tacitly in the mass slaughter of millions of creatures is at least somewhat evil without believing that an individual is evil - or even non-good - because of it. Their virtues may very well overwhelm that vice. I do consider it to be a minor evil, though I indulge in it myself.

It may be humanocentric of me, but I also consider the mass slaughter of millions of sentient beings to be a far greater evil, one that would be nigh-impossible to overwhelm through even the most otherwise-virtuous existence. Clearly we disagree, but I'd like to believe that my viewpoint on that matter is not so eccentric or uncommon as to be considered merely an arbitrary imposition of my own value system.

The longer you wait, the more humans there are, so the more humans you have to eventually kill to survive. Like germs. Clearly, NOT killing or sterilizing humans is evil and increases the total suffering.

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[Tony Vargas]

Clearly, NOT killing or sterilizing humans is evil and increases the total suffering.

Or they could help humans avoid the horrors of overpopulation without culling or literally sterilizing them, just be /really/ nice to them, systematically, in certain specific ways...


... OK, that was even more euphemistic than I intended. Analogy: here in CA, we would never poison innocent, if blood-sucking, insects, so instead we breed & release zillions of sterile male mosquitos to distract the females from their fertile potential mates, keeping their numbers down, without actually murdering any blood-suckers. We also stock up on other bugs that like to eat mosquitos.

So, there you have an explanation for the bizarre number of monsters out to eat humans in general, or shape-change into humans in order to eat and/or seduce them. It's not to give PCs something to fight, it's not the 6-8 encounter day impacting world-building, it's indirect population control by whomever's making all the monsters.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Or they could help humans avoid the horrors of overpopulation without culling or literally sterilizing them, just be /really/ nice to them, systematically, in certain specific ways...


... OK, that was even more euphemistic than I intended. Analogy: here in CA, we would never poison innocent, if blood-sucking, insects, so instead we breed & release zillions of sterile male mosquitos to distract the females from their fertile potential mates, keeping their numbers down, without actually murdering any blood-suckers. We also stock up on other bugs that like to eat mosquitos.

So, there you have an explanation for the bizarre number of monsters out to eat humans in general, or shape-change into humans in order to eat and/or seduce them. It's not to give PCs something to fight, it's not the 6-8 encounter day impacting world-building, it's indirect population control by whomever's making all the monsters.

Ah, but sterilization (whether directly or by subtle sabotage as you suggest) dooms the sterilized population to eventual death by starvation because no young workers will be born to take care of the aged. One could therefore argue that sterilization is therefore more cruel than outright killing!

Ultimately I don't think it matters. For purposes of this thread, suffice to say that Good is a disposition, not a specific, unified course of action, and that there are numerous reasons why PCs might come into conflict with beings who are themselves inclined toward Good.


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[Dan Chernozub]

The most common way for the PCs to end up fighting good-aligned creatures is by being hired by an evil person who flat-out lies to them about the situation and how to resolve it. Of course, this tends to fall apart if the players know the Monster Manual too well, and recognize that their opponent is a good guy on sight.

This is why it is a good idea to change a few things from the MM every once in a while. Stats, general CR, alignments, intelligence level - various things.

My good PCs are currently working with a Hobgoblin Legion (modeled closer to an Ancient Rome Legion when to the Volo version) to fight against fey and planar enemies threatening the land.