D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

[Jer]

And that's exactly what this DM did. He had an out of game chat with the players as to WHY the rest did not function, and told them (as adults) not to abuse the rest mechanic, and that if it happens again, the door is that-a-way.

That is not the scenario you outlined. You have reversed the order of the events. The scenario you outlined is the players proposed to take an action, the DM high-handedly punished them for what he perceived as an abuse of the rules, causing them to fail the scenario and killing off all of the townspeople and having the BBEG win.

And THEN he turns to the players to dress them down for daring to try to game the system and inviting them to leave if they don't like it.

That's jerk behavior, and I wouldn't put up with it. If the DM was my friend I'd pull them aside and ask if they were okay or if they're having problems at home or something. If they were a stranger at a public game at a con or a game store I'd quietly pack up my bag and leave.

If the order of events were the other way around (as I said in my response) that would be an adult dealing with other adults. The order you proposed it is a spoiled child dealing with other children. It's gross, and I wouldn't put up with anyone treating me that way, nor would I sit there while someone else treated the other players that way. Life's too short to deal with that kind of nonsense.

 

[Flamestrike]

First the DM punished the players before having a chat with them. Not after.

No, the 'punishment' was on account of taking 8 hours off in the middle of the adventure, in which the BBEG was up to something that the players were there to foil. The choice to (nova and then rest) was the culprit there.

And that's not 'punishment'. Its a consequence of failing to meet the implied Doom clock.

 

[Flamestrike]

That is not the scenario you outlined. You have reversed the order of the events. The scenario you outlined is the players proposed to take an action, the DM high-handedly punished them for what he perceived as an abuse of the rules,

But it's not a 'perception' though is it. It's literally what they're doing. I mean, they've rocked up to the table with a Coffee-lock, a 'build' that is based around abuse of the the resting mechanic.

They're actively attempting to abuse the rest mechanic rules, in an adventure with (an implied) Doom clock (namely - stop the BBEG before he kills the townsfolk).

Can we at least agree on that factual premise before continuing?

 

[Flamestrike]

@Jer

You've rocked up to a table with a Coffee-lock build (not a co-incidence, you're playing it in full knowledge that it's power comes from an abuse of the rules). The active quest is 'Save the Townsforlk from the BBEG before he sacrifices them for a foul ritual (in a non specified time).'

First encounter, you proceed to dump all your spell slots, and then sit back to rest.

The DM (shaking his head) allows this action, but states your rest does nothing (bad dreams from all that coffee) and takes you aside and explains that if you try and abuse the rest mechanic again, you're out of the game.

As you explore the dungeon further, you find a bunch of dead townsfolk, and no BBEG to be found (a direct consequence of your decision to rest).

To be fair to your argument, the DM should have pulled you up before the game even started with a session zero (''if you even try gaming the rest mechanic at this table, you'll be looking for another table'') but lets assume this DM didnt have time to vet your character first, or have a session zero chat to begin with.

Fair game, or not?

 

[Neonchameleon]

No, the 'punishment' was on account of taking 8 hours off in the middle of the adventure, in which the BBEG was up to something that the players were there to foil. The choice to (nova and then rest) was the culprit there.

As I have pointed out this isn't true. The comment you were replying to and outright quoted explicitly says that they took a short rest in ten minutes by means of the Catnap spell.

Your punishment also says "You rest and your rest is uneventful, and plagued by bad dreams. It has no effect." And the only "It" that could be referred to to have no effect is the rest. Which means that you yourself wrote that the DM was arbitrarily altering the rules to deny the effect of the rest as well as everything else. This is arbitrary punishment no matter how you look at it.

And that's not 'punishment'. Its a consequence of failing to meet the implied Doom clock.

But the doom clock was added by you retroactively. And then jumped forward eight hours in the space of ten minutes.

An adult would have asked "are you sure you want to take 8 hours of rest? You do know the BBEG will do things in that time?" Discussing things that the players would be aware of. And would have had the response "No, we're taking ten minutes of rest".

 

[ECMO3]

The Dragon alone spits out 45 odd damage with its breath weapon on an average damage roll in an AoE. One lucky breath weapon roll or two and its likely game over for several PCs.

Ok so I decided to take your bait after thinking of it. We will compare a single class 5th level Enchatment Wizard vs a 3rd level Enchangment Wizard/2nd level twilight cleric. The party is 4: this character a Melee martial, a ranged Martial and a Rougue.

We will use a PHB half elf Elf 5th level Enchanter vs a PHB half Elf 3/2 Enchanter/Twilight Cleric
S15/D10/C12/I16 (18)/W14/Ch10
Both start as Wizard


Comparing these two.

Both Characters have hypnotic Gaze
Both characters have the exact same number of spell slots: 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd

Wizard advantages over multiclass
+1 save due to ASI
2 3rd level spells teh cleric does not have - we will use the two you mentioned Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball
3 more wizard spells prepared (two are the 3rd level spells above, the third is mage armor)
Can get back a 3rd level slot with Arcane Recovery

multiclass Advantage over Wizard:
AC18 with no spell slot used vs AC13 using a spell slot for the wizard
2 more hps
Twilight Sanctuary
Turn Undead
6 1st level 1st level cleric spells prepared
Advantatage on initiative
300 foot darkvision
can give 300 foot darkvision to 2 allies for an hour
can get back a slot using harness divine power

Spells prepared (wizard only in red, multiclass only in green, spells they both have in blac)
Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Cause Fear, Mage Armor, Sanctuary, Healing Word, Bless, PEG, Faerie Fire, Sleep
Web, Vortex Warp
Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern

Let's tale through the fights you mention. We will assume short rest after fight 2 and after fight 4. We will assume bright lighting in every fight so the party with the multiclass does not surprise everyone with vastly superior vision.

Like I mention earlier they have the same number of spell slots so lets start:

Before the day begins the single class character casts mage armor

1. Hobgoblins and Boss = the play here is web. If the 5th level wizard had fear that would be the spell to use, but he doesn't and web is going to generally going to be the best option. Fireball would work if he won initiative (beating all 6 hobgoblins), but if he didn't this is probably not a good time to use it and it is overkill on 4 CR1/2 and a CR3. Upcast cause fear at 3rd level is probably the second best option if you are way down on the initiative order and the enemy is mixed up with you.

We are going to say they both use web

Verdict - tie. The single class has a better save, but the multiclass has advantage on initiative and therefore is more likely to get it off before enemies.

2. Ettins - Ettins have no ranged attack. The play here is upcast cause fear, if one is lucky enough to save you hit him with silvery barbs. They can't advance frightened so all they can do is dodge. You pummel them with ranged weapons, anc cantrips and the Rogue either kites (if he is a swashbuckler) or uses steady aim. If the melee guy feels left out he can kite too. They get an AOO on melee man but it is one attack (with disadvantage) instead of two. They save again at the end of their turn. If one of them makes it you cast the spell again targeting both.

Verdict - They used the same spell but I am giving a slight nod to the multiclass due to advantage on initiative. If you win initiative you make is so they will likely never get an attack action.

SHORT REST
Going into short rest - They both used 2 second level slots, the wizard also used a first level slot for Mage Armor. I am going to say both of them used two more 1st level slots on shield or silvery barbs. This is being generous considering the multiclass has the same AC without shield as the wizard has with it.

Wizard uses Arcane recovery gets back 1 1st, 1 2nd. Cleric uses Harness Divine Power getting back 1 1st and arcane recovery getting back 1 2nd

At the end of this rest they have the following in slots:
Wizard: 2 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd
Cleric: 3 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd

3. 4 Gargoyles: This is where it gets interesting. Initiative order matters a lot here.

Hypnotic Patter will probably make them all lose a turn and probably one of them will lose 2 turns. That is a good play if you win initiative. Fireball is good if you win initiative too. Problem is you need to get all of them for those to be really effective. The chance the single class Wizard will beat all 4 in initiative is 17%. If he had a 16 dexterity instead of a 10 it is still only 32%.

The chance the multiclass character will win initiative is only 29% but he does not have these spells anyway. he does have Faerie Fire, which is probably what you want to do if you win, but even with advantage he does not win most of the time.

That means if you go to your AOE you are left with using an AOE that probably only hits 2 of them, fragging allies, or using a spell that you can target only a few individuals.

Of note Gargoyles also have no ranged attacks meaning something that keeps them away is ideal

Given that I think upcast cause fear at 3rd level on three of them is the best play for both players here. You probably don't get it off before a couple of them swarm you, but you prioritize ones that are not yet engaged and if you hit some that are engaged either they have disadvantage or your allies can disengage. Bless would be an alternative for the multiclass character, probably upcast at 2nd level, but unless you are at the very bottom of the initiative order I think upcast cause feat is better here.

Verdict - I am actually going to give slight not to the Wizard because of the higher save DC. Initiative would be important if the multiclass had the 3rd level spells but he doesn't

4. 1 Ghast and 4 Ghouls

The Wizard probably uses web here, even if he only catches a few. That is a good play. He could fireball, but he has a long day ahead still. The multiclass can turn undead though and that takes on average 3 of them out of the fight completely.

Verdict - Cleric

We are going to say each of them used another 2 1st level slots on either shield or absorb elements

Short Rest:
Coming out of this short rest:
Wizard slots: 0 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd
Multiclass slots: 1 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd

5. 2 Wyrmlings:
There are a lot of options here and it depends on if this is outside or inside. We will assume it is outside and the wyrmlings will use flyby tactics when out of breath. By saying that I mean they will fly over everyone come down and attack someone with a ranged weapon (or no weapon) and climb back up to range.

I don't think you use a spell here, especially if you know momma is around.

Verdict - tie

6. Young Black Dragon

You gave this dragon legendaries, which means save or suck is useless and the party does not have enough spell slots to burn through his legendaries.

going into this the multiclass is going to use twilight sanctuary the 1st turn and most likely save slots (1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd) for either absorb elements or healing word. After the dragon uses a breath weapon he can consider sanctuary as a bonus action cast. Sanctuary has the potential to actually burn through more than one legendary because he saves every time he attack the multiclass. This might work it might not, if he gets down to 0 and he has no legendaries lefe, cause fear is an option which would mean if he is using a flyby attack that he can't attack until he saves)

The Wizard is going to open with Fireball, but it is not going to be nearly enough.

Verdict cleric by a lot- Twilight sanctuary cancels dragon fear and if the character does not have dragonfear it gives him hps.

So there you have it - 6 fights, the single class uses more slots and still does a lot worse in 2 of the engagements

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah nah. 5E is heavily mook dependent for its encounters, and nothing clears a room of mooks better than a Fireball.

Fear clears a room a better than fireball.

You generally will have to win initiative or have surprise to clear a room with fireball. The irony is the more "mooks" in the room, the less likely you will win initiative.

Even if they dont drop straight up, they're now 1 hit away from death from the other PCs.

Generally about half of them are not going to be targeted at all because they will be engaged with your allies before you cast it.

An Evoker does solve this problem, but that is not a very powerful class comapred to others.

No, they wont be. It takes an action to wake someone (presuming the monsters have the presence of mind to attempt it, and don't just run off and leave their friends to die, because 'evil') so unless your monsters have very convenient initiative results, and are also able to move freely, and are so inclined to try and wake their buddies, it's a lot longer than 1 round to wake everyone up.

If at least 1 intelligent enemy saves they will NEVER lose more than 2 turns unless the DM is stupid. For example lets say you catch 14 bad guys in HP and 13 of them fail thier save. Let's evenly distribute initiative order among the wizard and 14 bad guys:


20: BG1
19: BG2
18: BG3
17: BG4
16: BG5
15: BG6
14: BG7
13: Wizard
12: BG8
11: BG9
10: BG10
9: BG11
8: BG12
7: BG13
6: BG14

You cast on initiative order 13. For the sake of this discussion we will say you catch every single one of them in HP and ONLY BG12 makes his save (initiative order 8). You had a great setup with 14 bad guys in the AOE and you got great rolls with 13 failing their saves and being charmed. After the wizards turn here is how it progresses:

12: BG 8 is charmed and can do nothing
11: BG 9 is charmed and can do nothing
10: BG10 is charmed and can do nothing
9: BG11 is charmed and can do nothing
8: BG12 uses action to wake BG 13
7: BG13 uses action to wake BG 14
6: BG14 uses action to wake bad guy 1
20: BG1 uses action to wake BG2
19: BG2 uses action to wake BG3
18: BG3 uses action to wake BG4
17: BG4 uses action to wake BG5
16: BG5 uses action to wake BG6
15: BG7 uses action to wake BG 8
Wizard -casts nonconcentration spell becasue he is still concentrating on the few that are not up /.. oh and it can not do damage to the remaining few charmed guys
13: BG8 uses action to wake BG9
12:BG9 uses action to wake BG10
11:BG10 uses action to wake BG11
ALL of them are now back in the fight

In this example where you got over the top luck and the results are 3 enemies lost 2 actions (BG8, BG9, BG10), 11 enemies lost one action (the rest of them). If the initiative was the best possible and only the guy that went right before the wizard saves they would have all lost 2 actions except him (he would lose 1).

That is how the spell works and if your DM is not playing it that way then he is playing on easy mode for you. I know a lot of tables homebrew this spell so enemies that are awaken can't use actions, but that is not RAW

No, it's not. It's worth considerably more than that (and your damage only works if you're fighting 2 or more creatures adjacent to each other with GFB, or they move with BB).

Not true. Cantrip damage scales with character level not caster level, so at 5th level you get an extra 1d8 on a hit even if the enemy does not move

18 strength greatsword 5th level 2 attacks AC 15: 14 DPR (11 damagex2 with a 65% chance to hit)
18 strength greatsword 5th level Booming Blade AC15: 10 plus 6 if he moves (15.5 damage + 9 movement damage with a 65% chance to hit)

So using the highest damage weapon in the game for extra attack it is 4 per turn if the enemy never, ever, ever, ever, ever moves. So even if the enemy never, ever, ever, ever, ever moves, the average combat would have to go 7 rounds to be more than 25 difference. And news flash, the enemy does move sometimes.

Now you can certainly tack on feats, subclass abilities etc to drive that up some, but in general it is about 5 difference like I said.

You're still only making one attack roll. The benefits of two attack rolls can not be underestimated (as you're doing here). It's not just an exponential increase in damage, it also makes your damage more reliable (because you have two chances to hit) and increases your crit probability exponentially (double the chance of a critical hit), which can have game changing impacts with riders (smites, smite spells, sup dice, sneak attack, hunters mark etc).

Two attack rolls are benificial if you are adding conditional damage like sneak attack or a condition like frightened on a hit. If you are just evaluating it on damage value though there is no benefit to hitting once for 20 or twice for 10.

You. Have. 2. Slots Per. Long. Rest.

2 slots to use either shield or absorb elements over a 6 encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day (the default) compared to 14 uses of Bardic inspiration being a floating +1d8 to an attack roll or save?

No this is not true, you need to read the rules on multiclassing.

A multiclass caster can use any of his slots to cast any of his spells. A Bard4/fullcaster1 has 9 slots (4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd) and he can use all 9 of them for shield and absorb elements if he wants.

The only exception is if he multiclasses to warlock. In that case he has 7 slots plus 2 first level slots that recharge on a short rest. But he can use any of those slots for any of his warlock or bard spells.

I know which of those helps a party out more, and contributes to the overall success more, and it aint the 2 slots.

It is no loss in slots. You need to read the rules on multiclassing

 

[ECMO3]

No that's not correct.

You need to compound a 36 percent chance of hitting, with another second chance independent of the first one.

A 25 percent chance (odds of rolling a 4 on a d4) increases to 50 percent when rolling 2d4 trying to roll a single 4.

You do not the understand math. If you have a 25% chance of rolling a 4 on a d4 and you roll twice your chance of rolling at least one 4 is 43.75%, not 50%. If you roll 2d4 more than half the time you will NOT get a single 4.

Your chance of rolling a 3 or less on both dice is 56.25%.

Ask yourself this - what if you roll a d4 10 times? Is the chance you roll a 4 now 250%? No it isn't, the chance of rolling at least one d4 is 94.37% if your roll 10 4-sided dice.

 

[ECMO3]

At 5th level (the level we are talking about here) you're a Monk 3/ Sorc 1/ Ftr 1 so you dont have Stunning strike, or Action surge, and your Second wind only heals 1d10+1.
\

I know I don't. I actually said that in the post you quoted. Did you read it? I will post the relevant sentence again here (bold for emphasis):

"Those were the things I said were important to this build. I can't get all of them in a multiclass by level 5, I can't get all of them in a single class by level 5. I can get some of them in either a multiclass or a single class and I want to maximize that."

So tell me the build that gets me the most possible of those things using my race, my abilities and my feat (for characters who get an ASI).

There are 13 things on that list. If one build gets me 6 of them and another gets me 7 of them by level 5 then the build that gets 7 is ahead (at level 5 at least).

 

[Flamestrike]

I can't get all of them in a multiclass by level 5

Exactly my point. You cant have what you want, right when single classed characters are entering a totally different tier of play with an exponential (and game changing) boost to their power.