Epametheus
First Post
Otterscrubber said:
Um, what? Becuase I think summoning celestial elephants would not turn an evil wizard good, I'm a bad roleplayer?
Good casters and the Gate spell
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
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Um, what? Becuase I think summoning celestial elephants would not turn an evil wizard good, I'm a bad roleplayer?
Otterscrubber
First Post
Epametheus said:
Not at all, as a matter of fact I agree with your opinion that it should not matter what the alignment of the creature you summon is. It is just that is probably where that concept comes from. I certainly wouldn't make any judgement about your style based on that. Some people might say I'm a bad roleplayer because I roll dice, but I dont' pay them much attention.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Actually, I think it has to do with the nature of morality in D&D. They are objective qualities, Forces rather than concepts.Otterscrubber said:
Think of Good and Evil as giant philosophical magnets, and a PC's soul as an iron bar. Each time the PC commits an evil act, or is exposed to evil magic, the Evil magnet is run across the surface of his soul. Each time he is good, or uses good magic, the Good magnet passes over him. No one pass is going to re-align the PC's soul, but over time using the Evil magnet will align the PC's soul with Evil. Conversely, an already evil soul, using good magic on a constant and regular basis, can have itself realigned with Good.
There's nothing wrong with rejecting the idea that Good and Evil are forces that, with continuing contact, can change the nature a person's heart. But I don't particularly see anything "incredibly dumb" about using the concept either.
If you summon Angels, you place yourself in the presence of Grace, and that is bound to have an impact on you. Likewise if you consort with fiends.
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Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Or for that matter if you're an evil character and you cast 'protection from evil'. You know - to go kill balors for pure personal gain and the thrill of the kill. Or for that matter if you cast 'magic circle against evil', and gradually turn good because you're using it all the time containing summoned evil creatures.Lord Pendragon said:
I just love the idea of a character who's alignment is neutral because he summons balors all the time using protection from evil...
Lord Pendragon
First Post
You seem to be trying to use your example as a reason why my argument is nonsensical. If you aren't, I apologize. If you are, then let me point out that the system I've outlined is only nonsensical if you assume that all acts are of equal value. i.e. that casting a [Good] spell exactly counterweighs some evil act, such as summoning Balors for personal gain. Assuming that, then yes the system crumbles.Saeviomagy said:
But if you operate under the assumption that some acts have a greater impact on your soul than others, then the system works just fine. Your soul benefits slightly from using the [Good] spell, Protection from Evil, while at the same time is tainted greatly by summoning a creature of evil, then exploiting that evil for personal gain.
Bishop2113
First Post
This how I feel on the affect's of casting spells, good or evil.
I think that channeling negative/positive magical energies through one's person to cast spells for whatever purpose could very well affect them over time. This is just one of the many things that are left up to you as the "Role"-player to decide. Does my char. feel that this is a bad thing, is he feeling the embrace of good/evil through his magic?
Ex. How does it feel to use gate to some a balor to turn an army away and save a lawful good village from being ravaged, even though I am a Good cleric of so and so.
Magic should have more affect to the character then just ho-hum, another day another bunch of spells. Magic is a power that not everyone has for a reason. Magic in my opinion is something that the character feels with-in themselves, they make a descion to cast a spell and they draw that power from within.
All characters have that are able to use magic can use their spells for whatever they see fit good or bad. Should one draw to much from the neg/pos or use it for neg./pos. acts to much and it might start them in a new direction.
Ex. A young cleric could slide, maybe seeing his home town destroyed by orcs, or the such.
.... I'm sure you have all seen Star Wars, and you should then remember Yoda and the darkside speech, well apply that, if nothing else I said seems to make sense to you. Vader was a good kid, well not in the movie, who was turned into something very evil. He had access to both sides of the force and he decided his path as all people must do. I believe in the end that he changed his Ali. one last time.
I hope this at least makes you consider another way of looking at magic, and not just for your cleric, but for any and every class that can feel the effects of magic.
I think that channeling negative/positive magical energies through one's person to cast spells for whatever purpose could very well affect them over time. This is just one of the many things that are left up to you as the "Role"-player to decide. Does my char. feel that this is a bad thing, is he feeling the embrace of good/evil through his magic?
Ex. How does it feel to use gate to some a balor to turn an army away and save a lawful good village from being ravaged, even though I am a Good cleric of so and so.
Magic should have more affect to the character then just ho-hum, another day another bunch of spells. Magic is a power that not everyone has for a reason. Magic in my opinion is something that the character feels with-in themselves, they make a descion to cast a spell and they draw that power from within.
All characters have that are able to use magic can use their spells for whatever they see fit good or bad. Should one draw to much from the neg/pos or use it for neg./pos. acts to much and it might start them in a new direction.
Ex. A young cleric could slide, maybe seeing his home town destroyed by orcs, or the such.
.... I'm sure you have all seen Star Wars, and you should then remember Yoda and the darkside speech, well apply that, if nothing else I said seems to make sense to you. Vader was a good kid, well not in the movie, who was turned into something very evil. He had access to both sides of the force and he decided his path as all people must do. I believe in the end that he changed his Ali. one last time.
I hope this at least makes you consider another way of looking at magic, and not just for your cleric, but for any and every class that can feel the effects of magic.
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Otterscrubber
First Post
I think this thread is getting a bit sidetracked. I was not curious as to whether it was considered an evil act to summon a balor if you are a good caster, but whether it is an evil act to summon a solar (or some other unsuspecting 3rd party of good alignment) and compel it to face danger for you if you are a good caster. I mean that solar probably had other plans that day. How do these powerful good creatures feel about being yanked into the Prime and taking orders from a mortal? How do most DMs treat this in their campaigns.
I heard one person mention that there is an "on-duty" roster of solars or other beings to answer gates in their domains. Is this the general take on it?
I heard one person mention that there is an "on-duty" roster of solars or other beings to answer gates in their domains. Is this the general take on it?
Lord Pendragon
First Post
I think it depends on the role-play. If you call the Solar and when it arrives, you gratefully ask for its aid in fighting the evil necromancer, there will most likely be no problems. The designs of Heaven are vast and will not be undone by the absence of a single solar for a few minutes. The solar will be willing to help a powerful good wizard in his struggles, then it will be on its way.Otterscrubber said:
If on the other hand the wizard demands that the solar fight when and where he says (which the spell does say is possible) things become more diffucult. Solars are the heralds and handmaidens of gods. It takes only a brief communication between the solar and its master for the magic of Gate to be sundered, and then the angry solar is free to do what it will. That might still be to help the wizard (and then reprimand him sternly for the hubris of thinking to command the Hosts of Heaven. Or, it might be to leave the wizard to his own devices, as a lesson in humility and consequence.
Not IMC. Solars have other business. The only mitigating factor is that usually, it's business that they can leave for a few minutes, then return to. So no "Gate Duty" solars in my game.
Edit to add: Seems I got a bit off-topic again. I think it's an evil act to impose your will magically on another being, no matter what the circumstances. So if you Gate in a solar and ask for its aid: not evil. If you Gate in a solar and compell it to do battle: evil act. This also holds true for fiends. Just because you do something to an evil target doesn't make your act any less culpable.
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Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Lord Pendragon said:
Ok, so for every Planar binding I cast, I can cast 10 or 100 protection from evil spells, and tip the scales in my favour?
And if you're going to say "no, because you're just doing that for personal gain", then you're basically saying "spells have no moral weightings, but their consequences and the motivation of the caster does". IOW you're arguing against yourself.
UltimaGabe
First Post
Regardless of whether using a [Good] or [Evil] spell is a good or evil act, an Evil Cleric simply cannot cast any spells with the [Good] descriptor, nor can a Good Cleric cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor. It won't cause any sort of alignment change, because it can't happen. A good deity simply doesn't grant evil spells to their Clerics, nor do evil deities grant Good spells to their Clerics. So if a Cleric tried to cast Summon Monster I to summon a Fiendish bat, the spell would fail. If he tried to even prepare a spell with the [Evil] descriptor, the preparing wouldn't work. Deities simply don't grant spells of opposed alignments.
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