Good Cleric with Command Undead

[Omegaxicor]

A player wants to be a good cleric (Pelor is his patron because he is a Human Cleric do it is the default deity) but he wants his character to believe that:

While raising the dead is wrong (duh!) having those already risen attack and kill the Necromancer who raised them

My main two questions are :

1) Should there be any special rules for him Commanding Undead, if he can at all

2) Should they be under his control or be friendly NPCs or something else

I am leaning towards 1) 2x Turn attempts per cast and 2) NPC neutral, the Necromancer (no other enemies) is considered hostile or unfriendly)

 

[kitcik]

IMHO he can't do it. It's like taking a turn in a gang rape because "she was already being raped anyway." You can't defile the deceased by commanding their undead bodies to do stuff. You want them to rest in peace.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I can see what you mean, defiling the dead is bad but he sees it (and I am on the fence) as he is letting the undead get their revenge on the Necromancer

you analogy is terrible for countering but it would be like freeing the undead of the dominating force controlling them so they can find peace by claiming the guy who stopped them from resting

 

[airwalkrr]

Well if you want to know what the rules say, they are pretty cut and dry. Casting the spell is an evil act, which Pelor would probably frown upon in general, but a cleric can prepare any spell on the cleric spell list regardless of alignment or deity alignment. If said cleric of Pelor wanted to cast animate dead on someone with the intention of having the animated dead attacking a necromancer, regardless of who it is (i.e. it doesn't matter if the necromancer killed them or not), it is indeed possible.

Where do you draw the line then? That is up to you as a DM. If you don't feel it should be possible for a cleric of Pelor to animate the dead, then simply tell your player whenever he prays for that spell that Pelor won't give it to him under any circumstances. However, if you feel that a minor act of evil (animate dead is only a 3rd-level spell after all) with good intentions is within reason, especially if the cleric destroys the undead after the necromancer is dead and gives them proper burial, then feel free to allow it. Of course, I would say repeated uses of such a tactic would definitely constitute a gross violation of the cleric's code of conduct and he would lose his divine abilities and be forced to atone.

Now if I misunderstood your question and you were talking about using turn attempts to command undead, then the rules are quite clear on that issue as well. No, it is not at all possible. As a Good-aligned deity, Pelor does not grant his clerics the ability to rebuke or command undead. It doesn't matter what the cleric's alignment is. Clerics of Pelor may ONLY turn or destroy undead. If you wish to allow it on a case-by-case basis, then that is your prerogative as a DM, but the rules-as-written do not allow it.

Now a cleric of Boccob (who is a Neutral-aligned deity) with a neutral alignment may choose at character creation whether his character turns or rebukes undead. But once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. But a Good-aligned cleric of Boccob cannot make this choice, as the cleric's alignment dictates that he is only able to turn or destroy undead.

In summation, if the cleric of Pelor wants to really end the suffering of the undead, he should destroy them and kill or capture the necromancer (not necessarily in that order). Any other option is house-ruling it.

 

[kitcik]

I can see what you mean, defiling the dead is bad but he sees it (and I am on the fence) as he is letting the undead get their revenge on the Necromancer

you analogy is terrible for countering but it would be like freeing the undead of the dominating force controlling them so they can find peace by claiming the guy who stopped them from resting

I guess you're one of those "Frodo should have used the One Ring to destroy Mordor" people...

 

[Omegaxicor]

Now if I misunderstood your question and you were talking about using turn attempts to command undead, then the rules are quite clear on that issue as well. No, it is not at all possible.

Thank you that makes sense, I was under the impression that Turn Undead wasn't granted by the Deity but was a force of personality power

and yes you might have misunderstood, ironically both me and the player agree that casting Animate Dead (or anything that raises the dead) would grossly violate the clerics code, but once they are raised the act has been committed so he figures that using the undead isn't that evil, I suppose it is sort of "disarming the blackguard and impaling him with his own sword" style thing

I guess you're one of those "Frodo should have used the One Ring to destroy Mordor" people...

HAHAHAHAHAHA well yes actually, I always wondered why Sauron wasn't ethereal while he was wearing the ring and why create an all powerful ultimate artefact that makes you ethereal

back on topic, animating dead is a kind of bad thing but using them once they are raised is EVIL BEYOND IMAGINING...odd

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I understand what your player is going for, and here's how I'd handle it:

Homebrew Feat: The Choice

For non-intelligent undead, his Tuning power works as normal. But for intelligent undead, he can offer them The Choice. By burning a second Turn attempt, any undead who accept The Choice would be free to attack their animator/controller for half of the time they would normally be forced to flee. During that time, The Choice's offeror cannot take direct action against the animator/controller. The Choice can only be offered 1/combat. After the duration of The Choice has expired, the undead automatically return to the control of their animator/controller, and cannot be turned by anyone else the rest of that day.

The undead's animator/controller can attempt to regain control of the undead at any time as per normal.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Homebrew Feat: The Choice

For non-intelligent undead, his Tuning power works as normal. But for intelligent undead, he can offer them The Choice. By burning a second Turn attempt, any undead who accept The Choice would be free to attack their animator/controller for half of the time they would normally be forced to flee. During that time, The Choice's offeror cannot take direct action against the animator/controller. The Choice can only be offered 1/combat. After the duration of The Choice has expired, the undead automatically return to the control of their animator/controller, and cannot be turned by anyone else the rest of that day.

The undead's animator/controller can attempt to regain control of the undead at any time as per normal.

that sounds good, would it be overpowered to say that it doesn't wear off, unless the animator uses a Turn Undead check to command it, at some sort of bonus

and I think it would make more sense to make it work the other way, the intelligent undead are ones that already have the choice and have chosen to be evil, the non-intelligent undead don't get the choice (might say that only those raised from innocents or non-evil humanoids can be affected)

 

[Rath the Brown]

Well if you want to know what the rules say, they are pretty cut and dry. Casting the spell is an evil act, which Pelor would probably frown upon in general, but a cleric can prepare any spell on the cleric spell list regardless of alignment or deity alignment. If said cleric of Pelor wanted to cast animate dead on someone with the intention of having the animated dead attacking a necromancer, regardless of who it is (i.e. it doesn't matter if the necromancer killed them or not), it is indeed possible.

Not quite.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). For example, a good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) cannot cast evil spells. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions (see Chapter 11: Spells).

A good cleric might be able to prepare an evil spell (depending on your choice of fluff for how this is handled. IE, if the preparation requires praying to your deity to grant the ability to cast the spell, a good deity is unlikely to grant an evil spell, so you wouldn't be able to prepare it), it won't do any good since the cleric won't be able to cast it.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I always ruled that the deity doesn't grant you the powers and a cleric would know that his or her deity wouldn't grant them so just doesn't ask (hence they aren't even on the clerics "spells known list") but the books don't specifically say what happens (I suppose that is to give the DM a chance to say what s/he thinks is best)