Good Clerics and "Wasted" Spell Slots

[roguerouge]

I...it's hard to imagine a human society in which a Cleric wouldn't be able to use up as many Lesser Restoration and Remove Disease spells each day as he could memorize - and save a lot of lives in the process...

Missed the elimination of fatigue in that spell. I was skipping the cures and lumped cure disease in with that one.

Still, outside of major urban centers, there's not so many 5th level clerics out there. And in major urban centers, the demand for cure disease is going to far outstrip supply of the spells, given sanitation conditions. There won't be "spare" cure diseases.

Also, I think that economics plays a role here, as others have mentioned. As soon as you start giving away cures, you have several unfortunate effects. One, everyone will want cures for free. Two, you need to sell cures (amongst other revenue streams like donations) to keep your temple, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, and evil smack-down HQ open and functioning. Third, if you give away cures for free to only the "truly needy," then people start to wait until they are desperately sick before seeking help, so as to save money, which leads to more deaths and contagion than if they came in earlier. Finally, as soon as you do a handout, rather than a hand up, working class and middle class believers will ask why they have to work so hard to afford these services while Drunky McJobless gets it. They attend, they tithe, they volunteer and they pay. Drunky does none of those things. So, you undermine relations with the core of your congregation.

So, I think it's likely that these churches require an exchange of services if the person can't pay: wash dishes, clean windows, scrub floors, etc.

 

[Runestar]

I guess it is the same rationale as to how people can just donate a dollar or 2 to charity, despite having so much more in their bank accounts, and go to sleep at night thinking that they have done a very good deed. They continue to live in their billion dollar mansions while others survive on scraps of food. And these are the people who consider themselves philanthropists. Their donations, while probably sizable relative to what the average person would give, would barely make a dent in their personal fortunes.

There are possibly many degrees of "goodness" or altruism. Just because someone else is much more generous or helpful/dedicated/devoted than you does not necessarily diminish your own contributions. A line has to be drawn somewhere. Yes, you could spend your every waking hour treating the poor and sick, but I think the point is that you don't have to.

Clerics too have lives outside their "9-5" day job at the temple, and deserve to have personal time as much as the other people. Else, healing people would probably become a chore which they would come to dread. You have to be selfish to be generous, IMO.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Let's cut to the quick of it! You've got your supply and demand all flipitty-flopped!

Instead, what I'm asking is whether it's morally justifiable - for someone Good (in the D&D alignment sense) - to let a valuable resource that costs the user virtually nothing to go to waste when it'd be simple to find someone who needs it. (as in, when you're in a major city)

Yes, it is justifiable according to the Good alignment, because Good does not always mean "heals you." Good characters kill things. Good characters let things die. Good characters exist who don't go looking for excuses to use their gods' power.

Is the huge inconvenience you'd incur if you announced yourself as a source of free healing enough to justify not doing so? What, exactly, do NPC Clerics do with all the time they don't spend casting Remove Disease and Lesser Restoration on PCs? Do they need to keep spells reserved for paying customers to keep their struggling temples afloat in difficult economic times?

Well, part of that depends on how common NPC classed clerics are.

In the assumption of 3e, at least, is that they are very rare...rare like a celebrity sighting or a trillionaire is rare in our world. So those clerics are usually creating potions and scrolls and wands and operating clinics for high-level adventurers on par with themselves.

So firstly, they're crafting items to make that healing portable -- potions, scrolls, and wands.

Secondly, they're operating in their temple. People come to them for help often enough that they don't have to look for help. Depending on the church, they might not charge if someone is in an emergency condition, but they're not just going to wander around town handing out healing like pamphlets (except maybe if their donations drop... ) They'd let those in need come to them. The moment you have someone who can remove all your aches and pains in town, I'm sure the demand will far outstrip the supply.

 

[Drowbane]

My last High Level PC had alot going on during downtime between adventures.
Some projects...

* he would do walks through the Hive Ward with clerical retainers on hand who would walk with him through the Hive Ward tending to the sick who were too poor to go to temples for healing.
* the building of a new keep on Thanatos
* owned and operated (through followers) several orphanages, shelters, and soup kitchens in Sigil
* he had a number of agents in the Dustmen who tended to the dead.

And he was L/E!

Of course he also was responsible for a local thieve's guild, and was apart of the Sigilian Mafia (80% Undead - DM dubbed it the Underworld)...

A large part of it was Public Relations, he had a bad (but well deserved) reputation, not getting chased out of town (pfft, let the rabble try!!) by peasents with torches is a good thing (cloudkill! oh crap, I drew the attention of the Lady of Pain #tele-# *mazed!!!*).

 

[roguerouge]

Also, how are you going to find these wounded people? Lacking gather information and knowledge (local), this cleric is going to end up wandering around aimlessly looking for someone to heal. That's not a very efficient service model, nor is it particularly safe. Much better for people to come to the hospital, I mean temple.

Here's what I think:

I think that there's enough of a scarcity of clerics and adepts that demand for their spells outstrips supply, and especially outstrips the supply of people who would give spells away for free. That's especially true for spells above second level.

I think that the spells they don't charge for are either in exchange for services (quests, mopping floors, attending a sermon) or as a loss leader (spreading the faith to a captive and appreciative audience). I think they do that because it keeps those parishioners with barely enough faithful. I think that they do these exchanges because verifying who's truly needy vs. who has a great bluff skill takes time. I think they do that because it prevents some of the bad side effects of free spells. And I think that redemption and salvation are not gifts, but are rather the result of opportunities which require a great deal of effort over one's life to take advantage of. A free spell and off you go doesn't strike me as an effective means to save one's soul.

I think that core DnD, as a heroic adventure game, aims its spell lists towards emergency use spell casting and thus doesn't have a great many spells that improve people's daily lives.

I think that most spells outside of cures have negative social consequences, making enemies by costing people work. I think it's possible that wise sects strategically "don't have available" spells like mending or make whole and instead direct buyers towards the workers that would do the job and need the work. But I think that many sects might cast such spells and become part of the problem, unknowingly.

I think that Runestar has it exactly right: clerics are people too. I'm sure that religions have centuries of experience preventing burn out. The more effort and time after hours devoted to donating superfluous spell slots, the more likely burnout is going to occur. Long term, it's better for these religions to insist that their most valuable assets lead healthy, well-rounded lives.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Well, part of that depends on how common NPC classed clerics are. In the assumption of 3e, at least, is that they are very rare...rare like a celebrity sighting or a trillionaire is rare in our world.

Where are people getting this?

In DMG2, Saltmarsh (which AFAICT was generated using DMG demographics) has a population of 3000 or so, and at least 15 classed clerics, including at least one capable of raise dead.

I personally like making spellcasters rarer than the DMG demographics tables, and it fits Eberron well to do so, but that rarity isn't the assumption of 3E.

To answer the OP's question, I don't consider it handwaving to posit deities who subscribe to very similar POVs as "teach a man to fish." My clerics tend to look for people to help, but they look for the helpless, or the destitute, or children. And if there's capital-Evil to fight, that gets priority.

 

[genshou]

Where are people getting this?

In DMG2, Saltmarsh (which AFAICT was generated using DMG demographics) has a population of 3000 or so, and at least 15 classed clerics, including at least one capable of raise dead.

That's about what you should get from DMG demographics.

 

[S'mon]

Here's something I've been thinking about lately:

How do Clerics of most good deities justify going to bed at night with unused spell slots?

This question implies a degree of altruism far beyond what I'd think was typically indicated by Good alignment.

At most, I'd expect free spellcasting to poverty-stricken church members in good standing, should they or their families seek out the Cleric.

 

[roguerouge]

Where are people getting this?

In DMG2, Saltmarsh (which AFAICT was generated using DMG demographics) has a population of 3000 or so, and at least 15 classed clerics, including at least one capable of raise dead.

I personally like making spellcasters rarer than the DMG demographics tables, and it fits Eberron well to do so, but that rarity isn't the assumption of 3E.

I agree that clerics are not as rare as celebrity sightings.

However, we're not talking just clerics here. We're talking good clerics of faiths that might feel bound to give away spells for free at the end of the day. If we assume even distribution of good-neutral-evil, then we're down to 5 good clerics in Saltmarsh, perhaps 1-2 more if you assume evil clerics are rarer than good clerics. Now spread those clerics out across an entire pantheon and you have just 1-2 clerics serving an entire congregation. And not all of those clerics are going to feel guilty about not healing the poor and weak.

 

[Noumenon]

I think that most spells outside of cures have negative social consequences, making enemies by costing people work.

Think about "the automobile" as a magic transportation spell. Do people mind that it costs rickshaw drivers work? No, because a) rickshaw driving sucks, b) there are no rickshaw drivers to complain, because they all got other jobs, and c) even if they did complain the vast majority of people who love automobiles would shout them down.

A world where all the craftsmen and farmers were put out of work by cleric spells would be a much better world. These people might not have to work at all, or they could turn their freed-up energies toward professional sports leagues, bard school, retail, what have you.