Grade the Forged in the Dark System

[Grendel_Khan]

The only issues I've seen re: FitD's supposed complexity has been people just not actually reading a given corebook. Like that's it. There's a temptation, coming from other types of games, to think you can skim or skip a lot of the guidance, especially related to basic action resolution and GMing principles. Doing that can lead to the same problems that newcomers have with PbtA—calling for too many rolls, turning partial successes into failures through consequences, using damage for every consequence, "writing" adventures instead of following the fiction and the rolls, etc.

Everything else is just getting comfortable with lots and lots of GM improvisation. Again, just narrativist/storygame stuff. That can take some getting used to, coming from a trad background. But that's just GMing, right? Anything who claims they were an awesome, effortless trad GM their first time out isn't being super honest.

 

[Reynard]

No, you said ‘Like hitpoints?’ right after I had criticized clocks in BitD.

#Context matters

The context wasn’t a standalone statement that hp are a particular kind of clock

Unless you include the context of what I wrote following.

 

[FrogReaver]

Unless you include the context of what I wrote following.

It’s not the part I took issue with.

 

[Reynard]

The only issues I've seen re: FitD's supposed complexity has been people just not actually reading a given corebook. Like that's it. There's a temptation, coming from other types of games, to think you can skim or skip a lot of the guidance, especially related to basic action resolution and GMing principles. Doing that can lead to the same problems that newcomers have with PbtA—calling for too many rolls, turning partial successes into failures through consequences, using damage for every consequence, "writing" adventures instead of following the fiction and the rolls, etc.

Everything else is just getting comfortable with lots and lots of GM improvisation. Again, just narrativist/storygame stuff. That can take some getting used to, coming from a trad background. But that's just GMing, right? Anything who claims they were an awesome, effortless trad GM their first time out isn't being super honest.

I generally agree but it isn't just improv like in trad GMing, there is also a lot more inherent, systematized player input that trad GMs need to get comfortable with.

 

[FrogReaver]

I generally agree but it isn't just improv like in trad GMing, there is also a lot more inherent, systematized player input that trad GMs need to get comfortable with.

I’d add that getting players off the ‘pre-plan’ wagon isn’t easy, especially with no examples of what to do when they really try to lean into that.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

I generally agree but it isn't just improv like in trad GMing, there is also a lot more inherent, systematized player input that trad GMs need to get comfortable with.

I agree, though I think once you get a couple sessions under your belt, FitD's mechanics make that improv actually easier to pull off. You have guidelines to work with. But the biggest related challenge, imo, is the sheer amount of improv, and getting used to holding onto the "story" as loosely as possible. To me, that's helpful for going back to trad GMing too—means learning to better handle and set up emergent play, and discerning actual sandbox play from a railroad that's just widely distributed and not as linear as most.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I’d add that getting players off the ‘pre-plan’ wagon isn’t easy, especially with no examples of what to do when they really try to lean into that.

Also, to be real, I think some players just don't enjoy pure improv on missions as much as at least partial pre-planning. I think very valid points can be made that elaborately planned heists are kind of pointless in most RPGs, because the plan always immediately collapses, and thus it's sort of time-wasting, but whilst BitD's "no pre-plan" approach definitely outputs stuff recognisable as heists, it seems to me that it doesn't tap into some of the same areas of enjoyment as methods that involve a bit more actual preparation (though not necessarily elaborate pre-planning). That said, I've been told by BitD fans that many groups do run a more "hybrid" approach and even had this outlined in some detail (admittedly a few years ago on Reddit so it might be hard for me to dig up, I should really have saved that to Google Drive!).

 

[FrogReaver]

I should note that while I criticize little things in BitD, my response on the poll was it’s pretty good.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Also, to be real, I think some players just don't enjoy pure improv on missions as much as at least partial pre-planning. I think very valid points can be made that elaborately planned heists are kind of pointless in most RPGs, because the plan always immediately collapses, and thus it's sort of time-wasting, but whilst BitD's "no pre-plan" approach definitely outputs stuff recognisable as heists, it seems to me that it doesn't tap into some of the same areas of enjoyment as methods that involve a bit more actual preparation (though not necessarily elaborate pre-planning). That said, I've been told by BitD fans that many groups do run a more "hybrid" approach and even had this outlined in some detail (admittedly a few years ago on Reddit so it might be hard for me to dig up, I should really have saved that to Google Drive!).

The idea that there's no planning in BitD usually comes from not playing it. You very often do some info gathering ahead of a score (not a heist, no really, unless you play a specific type of crew, most of what you do in Blades is not heists, just crimes of some kind or another) in order to make it possible in the first place. You just don't do a ton of planning, and you definitely don't obsess over maps and detailed inventory, etc. You also often do something specific before a score to get access to people or things that should help with it. A guard's uniform, blackmail material to turn someone close to your target, a big old bomb, etc. The idea that everything in Blades starts in media res is simplifying things too much. It just dials a lot of the planning way back, and has mechanics that let you cut to the chase—specifically, the part in the score where PCs have to start making tough decisions.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, to be real, I think some players just don't enjoy pure improv on missions as much as at least partial pre-planning. I think very valid points can be made that elaborately planned heists are kind of pointless in most RPGs, because the plan always immediately collapses, and thus it's sort of time-wasting, but whilst BitD's "no pre-plan" approach definitely outputs stuff recognisable as heists, it seems to me that it doesn't tap into some of the same areas of enjoyment as methods that involve a bit more actual preparation (though not necessarily elaborate pre-planning). That said, I've been told by BitD fans that many groups do run a more "hybrid" approach and even had this outlined in some detail (admittedly a few years ago on Reddit so it might be hard for me to dig up, I should really have saved that to Google Drive!).

That’s interesting. Seems fairly clearly against the intent of BitD but it would probably have worked better for my group.

One other part of players wanting to pre-plan is that it made transitioning from downtime to the mission feel a little railroady because I knew they wanted more preplanning.