Grading At-Will Powers

[Roxlimn]

KarinsDad:

Your criteria for evaluating the spreadsheets are flawed. The at-will choices on consideration in the PHB only target Ref, and the illusionary at-will is considered on its Will targeting alone (that being unique).

Thus, if you want to weigh Ref vs. Fort, you only have to count whether a monster either has better Ref than Fort or better Fort than Ref. Extremely high counts of Fort relative to Ref don't count because as long as Fort is higher, you aren't going to be using that power anyway, regardless of how high the Fort happens to be. That's the only criterion.

If you use this more practical measure, you'll come up with better numbers and that will reflect itself in play.

The problem is that I for one do not often know what type of creature I am fighting. Is it a Brute that ran into melee, or a Skirmisher, or a Soldier, or a Minion? Is it an Artillery in the back there, or a Lurker, or even a Controller?'

Are any of them Elite? Is it a Solo, or did we just accidentally alert two groups?

Don't know. So, deciding on which Defense to attack is a bit of quesswork unless I make some type of skill roll.

That's probably why you should be taking a bunch of skills.

 

[MwaO]

Holy Strike is the King. It gives Paladins a way to become effective DPR dealers, and only gets better with age; you can still benefit from it at high levels. It benefits from Astral Fire feat and your WIS (at Epic level that's +3 and +WIS), and critters vulnerable to radiant take more damage. And you can make a critter vulnerable to Radiant 5 with a 5th level Daily power. Basically, if you want to feel like you're helping the party deal damage, you really need this one.

The benefit of Astral Fire is generally the same as Weapon Focus and they don't stack - they both give a feat bonus to damage. Astral Fire is nice in that it works on all your radiant powers, but it won't work on your other at-will.

Yes, the +1 to damage is mathematically better than the +1 to hit at low levels in DPR against all level-appropriate opponents (if it wasn't, there wouldn't be a feat that gives you +2 damage for -2 to hit called Power Attack--it would be worthless).

It depends on the hit/damage that you do. If you're attacking an AC 16, sure. If you're attacking an AC 20 Hobgoblin Soldier, not so much. Most characters will hit it on a 13 for 9

Enfeebling ... oh man, that is a boring one. But it can help keep you or an ally from getting hit, and thus has some value. Again, no particular offensive value whatsoever, so Holy/Valiant are better overall. It's okay. It's best against a controller who is about to AoE your party, or an opponent with a really nasty effect to its attacks that you want to avoid at all costs. It can be useful. But I feel sorry for anyone playing a CHA-Paladin that has to use it all the time until you get a bunch of Encounter and Daily powers that you can replace it with.

The advantage of Enfeebling Strike is that with your mark, that's a -4 to hit anyone but you. You're taking them out of the combat by forcing them to attack the high defenses Paladin at a penalty of -2. As an example, against a Berserker Human, you hitting them means that they'll only hit you about 30-35% of the time instead of 40-45%.

 

[keterys]

And nothing like a party setup of Paladin Enfeebling, Cleric Sacred Flaming, and Wizard Illusory Ambushing to really grind a solo into ineffectiveness in the late rounds. (Yawn)

 

[LittleElvis]

It depends on the hit/damage that you do. If you're attacking an AC 16, sure. If you're attacking an AC 20 Hobgoblin Soldier, not so much. Most characters will hit it on a 13 for 9

Actually the +1 damage and -1 to hit is almost perfectly identical vs AC 20.

Let's use a longsword (+3) and give STR of 18 (+4) and WIS of 12 (+1). In reality, you'd probably have a better WIS if you're a STR-Pal, making this comparison a bit unrealistic. But just for the sake comparing ...

DPR:
Holy Strike [7 x 9.5] + 13(crit) = 79.5; 79.5/20=3.975
Valiant Strike [8 x 8.5] + 12(crit) = 80; 80/20=4.000

Now let's make it a WIS of +2
Holy Strike [7 x 10.5] + 14(crit) = 87.5; 86.5/20=4.375

Now WIS of +3
Holy Strike [7 x 11.5] + 15(crit) = 95.5; 95.5/20= 4.775

So yeah, Holy Strike is pretty much always better against one level-appropriate opponent at lower levels if you're getting at least +1 to damage from WIS. Chances are you're getting more than +1 to damage, though, leaving it a no contest of Holy > Valiant vs 1. You shouldn't be facing many AC 20s at level 1 anyway, and even then it's almost certainly better (because you're almost certainly getting more than +1 from WIS if you're a STR-Pal).

 

[LittleElvis]

The advantage of Enfeebling Strike is that with your mark, that's a -4 to hit anyone but you. You're taking them out of the combat by forcing them to attack the high defenses Paladin at a penalty of -2. As an example, against a Berserker Human, you hitting them means that they'll only hit you about 30-35% of the time instead of 40-45%.

I agree, it has some value against a big nasty. But just with Divine Challenge, you're probably forcing it to attack you anyway. Does it want -2 vs your high AC or -4 vs someone else's lower AC and DC damage? Even without Enfeebling, it's going to attack you the vast majority of the time. And if it doesn't, it's taking -2 to hit and taking DC damage. That's not a bad deal for you either.

 

[Mengu]

DPR:
Holy Strike [7 x 9.5] + 13 = 79.5; 79.5/20=3.975
Valiant Strike [8 x 8.5] + 12 = 80; 80/20=4.000

Now let's make it a WIS of +2
Holy Strike [7 x 10.5] + 14 = 87.5; 86.5/20=4.375

Now WIS of +3
Holy Strike [7 x 11.5] + 15 = 95.5; 95.5/20= 4.775

Just have to fix the math:

Wis 12 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 9.5 = 3.8
Wis 14 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 10.5 = 4.2
Wis 16 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 11.5 = 4.6

1 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 12+: (9/20) x 8.5 = 3.825
2 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 11+: (10/20) x 8.5 = 4.25
3 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 10+: (11/20) x 8.5 = 4.675

A rather important advantage of Valiant Strike is that you don't have to be attacking your Marked target. This way you keep one target busy with your mark, and one by pounding on it continually. I can see a more damage focused Paladin going for Holy Strike more often, but I think the powers are very close in usefulness.

 

[LittleElvis]

That said, assuming you're fighting 3 non-undead opponents, ignoring extra crit damage:
6th: 1d8 + 4 Str + 2 Enh + 1 Focus base, +3 Dmg for Holy, 60% hit with Holy, 75% hit with Valiant - Holy: 8.7 avg, Valiant: 8.625 avg
16th: 1d8 + 5 Str + 4 Enh + 2 Focus base, +4 Dmg for Holy, Same hit %s - Holy: 11.7, Valiant: 11.625
26th: 1d8 + 7 Str + 6 Enh + 3 Focus base, +5 Dmg for Holy and +1d10 for Holy Avenger, Same hit %s - Holy: 18.6, Valiant: 15.375

Let's look at the level 6 scenario.

You're definitely using at least a 1d10 weapon by that point. Let's make it a bastard sword. We're assuming a +3 WIS modifier, which you may not have (and if you only have +2, Valiant clearly wins). Let's give Holy the advantage of the +3 WIS, though.

60% hits with Holy and 75% hits with Valiant is about right. That's an AC of 21 at Level-6.

6th level average damage per non-critical hit in the above scenario using a Bastard Sword is 15.5 vs. 12.5.

Actual DPR is ...

Valiant: [12.5 x 14] + [17 + 7 for crit] = 199/20 = 9.95
Holy: [15.5 x 11] + [20 + 7 for crit] = 197.5/20 = 9.875

Valiant by a nose. Against 4+ opponents not vulnerable to Radiant, obviously Valiant wins there. If your WIS bonus is only +2, then it's 9.95 for Valiant vs. 9.325 for Holy.

I would also argue that if you're surrounded by three opponents, you not only take the higher DPR in Valiant, but you also are less likely to 'roll the dice' and you'd rather take the more reliable damage (75% vs 60% chance to hit), especially if one of them is a minion or bloodied because you want to take him out. Then after you wipe out one of them, you go back to Holy Strike vs 2 in this scenario, unless one of them is again knocking on death's door and you want the more reliable hit.

Valiant is also slightly better at the level 16 scenario using the Bastard sword (or perhaps something better than 1d10), and hits more reliably.

DPR:
Valiant: [16.5 x 14] + [21 + 14 for crit] = 266/20 = 13.3
Holy: [20.5 x 11] + [25 + 14 for crit] = 264.5/20 = 13.225

If you've got a Holy Avenger at 26, you're certainly going to be using Holy Strike over Valiant.

 

[LittleElvis]

Just have to fix the math:

Wis 12 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 9.5 = 3.8
Wis 14 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 10.5 = 4.2
Wis 16 Holy Strike needing 13+: (8/20) x 11.5 = 4.6

1 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 12+: (9/20) x 8.5 = 3.825
2 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 11+: (10/20) x 8.5 = 4.25
3 adj. opponent Valiant Strike needing 10+: (11/20) x 8.5 = 4.675

A rather important advantage of Valiant Strike is that you don't have to be attacking your Marked target. This way you keep one target busy with your mark, and one by pounding on it continually. I can see a more damage focused Paladin going for Holy Strike more often, but I think the powers are very close in usefulness.

I think you actually made the math less correct . I included the possibility of a critical hit in the DPR.

Great point about Valiant, though. A maximized Holy Strike is still probably useful more often, because if you've got a good WIS bonus it's probably better vs 2, and almost always better vs 1, while being roughly equivalent to vs 3, and gets synergy with 'Sign of Vulnerability' once/day and deals Radiant damage.

If you have both Holy and Valiant, then I think they are about equal as they give you good options as a team (choosing which one fits each situation). If you can only have one or the other, then I think Holy is just a bit better per se. But not by a lot, and of course in many cases Valiant edges it out.

 

[Mengu]

I think you actually made the math less correct . I included the possibility of a critical hit in the DPR.

Ahh, ok, that's what those numbers are... *shamed*

 

[LittleElvis]

I will say that I'd not be surprised if a significant number of DMs allow people to take 'cross-class' at-wills until we see more power options. Like Valiant Strike for a fighter or Priest's Shield of a paladin, that kind of thing.

Although Paragon Multi-Classing does allow that option at level 11, of course. I'm playing two Pals right now. One is a Human STR-Pal whose goal in life is to get Righteous Brand from Cleric as an at-will power (to go with Holy and Valiant) at level 11.

That would great to play with a DM who allowed that to happen more easily, though. If I was DM'ing, I might create a feat available at level 11 or 12 for swapping an at-will power with that of your multi-class. Or if I was feeling more generous, I'd let the feat available at level 8 or 10 allow that.