Grading Daily Powers

[Cadfan]

The main reason I like it is because it reduces miss chance from... ...50% to 25%...

In terms of expected damage per round, this is exactly as good as adding "Miss: Half damage" to a power. If you hit on a number below an 11, its better. Above is worse, but now that you know that, you'll choose targets wisely.

 

[ZSutherland]

My player's named the party wizard's Flaming Sphere Bob. They picked out a bright orange d20 to be Bob's mini, and he stays with their character's minis, never in a dice bag. I expect he'll soon start getting a share of the loot from one encounter every day. I think we know what their opinion is.

 

[keterys]

Cadfan, it appears that your scale is just slightly higher than mine, but if you decrease your recommendations by a partial grade they're a lot closer to mine. That said:

Cascade of Light- gives single target damage to a class that mostly lacks it and can add up to quite a lot of damage if the same is failed. Worth at least a B. You can get some extra damage with some damaging zone powers, but that doesn't really factor into my final decision that much because it usually requires multiple dailies to be fired off at once.

Err, what? Since when do Clerics lack for single target lasers? Normals will die too quickly to get much out of the vulnerability, while elites and solos are _really_ likely to make their save. It's best combined with other dailies and action point expenditure, definitely.

Brute Strike- Worth at least a B-. Everyone laughs at it because its just 3[W]+Str with Reliable, and that seems like its half as much of a Daily as other classes which usually get 3[W]+Stat and an added effect. But, consider who's using it. Fighter's [W]s tend to be much bigger than everyone elses. With a maul, this power does 6d6+str damage at level 1.

The greatsword is no better than the bastard sword and the maul is no better than the greatsword.

Split the Tree- this is where your "grade down if no Miss: Half or Reliable" rule starts to fall through. Some powers haven't got a Miss: Half or a Reliable entry, but usually they have some other effect to help assure their accuracy. In this case, Split the Tree gives you two attack rolls, and you pick the better of the two. This is a very significant increase in accuracy. Against a target that is hit on a 11+, you get the same overall expected damage as you would from a power which read, "4[W]+dex+dex, Miss: Half." The damage is spread around a little, which lessens the knock out effects, but the overall damage is basically the highest available of any level 1 daily power in the game (except for wizards with tightly packed foes). I'd give this an A.

Split the Tree is not equivalent 4W+Dex+Dex, Miss: Half, anymore than Scorching Burst is 5d6+5xInt, Miss: Half On the very same level and class, Jaws of the Wolf deals more expected useful damage than Split the Tree. Freezing Cloud on only two targets does almost equal damage on _all misses_. Nevermind the damage potential of Flaming Sphere, Guardian of Faith, or Villain's Menace. Dailies have a much higher spread of ability and Split the Tree isn't in the same ballpark with the As. I could probably up it to a B, as one notch below Jaws' B+, even if I'm protesting all the while. I won't do another round of updates for a day though.

Hunter's Bear Trap- not that great, but not bad for an archery Ranger. Ongoing 5 is worth as much as an extra W, guaranteed, and sometimes is worth more. Would you rate this as poorly if it read, "3[W]+Dex, target is slowed, save ends, Miss: Half damage?" Because that's actually worse.

I would rate it the same pretty much. 5.5 damage up front, 2.75 damage on Miss vs. ~7 via ongoing on Hit and 0 on Miss.

Easy Target- awkward power. Its almost better to miss with it in order to guarantee yourself a second round of combat advantage, instead of relying on the target to save. I'd rate it even more poorly just because of that annoyance.

Heh, but guaranteed combat advantage on a Miss seemed like a nice consolation prize

Armor of Agathys- Good, but it requires you to go into melee reach of your foes with a class that isn't cut out for that. And the Infernal warlock, the one most likely to not mind, already has enough non stacking temporary hit points not to get excited. I'd just give it a B.

Auto kills minions and makes it extremely painful for foes to even try attacking. Weirdly even if your entire turn is just defensing and/or stealthing, the damage output can be quite solid. Nice synergy with Eyebite too.

Dread Star- compatible with the Star pact paragon path (and very little is). Probably worth a B.

Curse of the Dark Dream- sliding enemies is just so darn useful. I'd give it a B.

Flames of Phlegethos- Total damage is very high on a hit. On a miss, it does minor damage. Worth at least a B.

I think all three of these are the same 'My scale is lower than yours' problem. Flames of Phlegethos for instance is basically a 3W and kicker spell with no Miss: Half... and 3W + kicker with Miss: ~Half is a B- or C+ depending on the kicker.

 

[Mengu]

I think all three of these are the same 'My scale is lower than yours' problem. Flames of Phlegethos for instance is basically a 3W and kicker spell with no Miss: Half... and 3W + kicker with Miss: ~Half is a B- or C+ depending on the kicker.

Your scale must be lower than mine too, when it comes to Warlock powers, except for Armor of Agathys, in which case your scale seems to be higher than mine.

Curse of the Dark dream is no worse than Pin the Foe, and you have that one at a B. And I'm still not impressed with Armor of Agathys, based on the primary role of a Warlock. As a Fighter power, it would be pretty incredible, as a Warlock power it's a bit counter-intuitive.

 

[Cadfan]

Cadfan, it appears that your scale is just slightly higher than mine, but if you decrease your recommendations by a partial grade they're a lot closer to mine.

Except that I agree with you on a lot of powers. I just think you devalue certain ones.

Err, what? Since when do Clerics lack for single target lasers? Normals will die too quickly to get much out of the vulnerability, while elites and solos are _really_ likely to make their save. It's best combined with other dailies and action point expenditure, definitely.

I should have been more clear. Clerics lack GOOD single target damage, particularly at low levels, and they are extremely lacking in knockout power.

The greatsword is no better than the bastard sword and the maul is no better than the greatsword.

Eh? A maul user with Brute Strike and 18 strength clocks in at average damage on a hit of 22. A greatsword user clocks in at 20.5. In any case, that wasn't the point- the point was that 6d6+str is higher than the expected damage output on a hit of most other daily abilities of that level. The only ones that compare are sneak attacking rogues using rapiers, rangers using Hunter's Quarry, and wizards who are hitting multiple foes with an area of effect attack. A Fighter often gets more out of 3[W] than other classes because he often has a bigger [W].

Split the Tree is not equivalent 4W+Dex+Dex, Miss: Half, anymore than Scorching Burst is 5d6+5xInt, Miss: Half

No, it is. And while Scorching Burst isn't equivalent "Miss: Half" under any circumstances, its damage IS properly calculated based on how many foes you expect to fit inside the burst. That's why Wizard damage is so much higher than some people think- the damage of an area spell is multiplied by the targets struck.

Lets say you hit on an 11+ with Split the Tree. If you hit, you will deal 2[W]+dex to each target (and you'll get your hunter's quarry on one, probably, but we'll leave that aside). Since its Split the Tree, you roll twice and keep the better one. We'll ignore the increased chance of a critical hit.

Your possible rolls are, with equal odds for each,

Hit, Hit, choose to Hit
Hit, Miss, choose to Hit
Miss, Hit, choose to Hit
Miss, Miss, you have to Miss.

So you've got a 75% chance of hitting. If you hit, your total damage is 2[W]+Dex per target, for a total of 4[W]+2[Dex]. Lets give you a 1d10 longbow, and +4 dex. This makes your total expected damage .75*(4*5.5+2*4)= 22.5.

If you were using a Miss: Half power that also dealt 4[W]+2[Dex] and hit on an 11+, you'd have expected damage of .5*(4*5.5+2*4) + .5*.5*(4*5.5+2*4) = 22.5.

Its exactly the same. Miss: Half increases your expected damage by one half times your chance of missing times your expected damage. When you hit on an 11+, that's .25*expected damage. When you roll twice and hit on an 11+, you increase your chance of hitting by 25%. The outcome is the same. If the number you hit on rises, Miss: Half improves. If it falls, the double roll method improves.

The two options are easily compared to one another, and Miss: Half comes out about even.

For the record, you rated Jaws of the Wolf as a B+.

Its expected damage, if your strength 18 ranger hits on an 11+ with longswords, is 2d8+4 per hit, and half that on a miss. You get a kicker of +1d6 either way, from Hunter's Quarry, since that occurs on damage dealt, not on a miss. So overall, your expected damage per attack is

.5*(2*4.5+4) + .5*.5*(2*4.5+4) = 9.75

times 2 for two attacks, plus a guaranteed 3.5 from hunter's quarry, gives you 23 damage. The longsword ranger gets +1 extra weapon proficiency, but the ranger can use Prime Shot, so that's about a wash with a slight edge to Jaws. Also, the 22 I quoted above for Split the Tree did not include Hunter's Quarry, which increases overall damage by 3.5*.75 = 2.625, raising the overall result to 24.625.

These powers are almost exactly the same in terms of damage. They have various minor benefits (prime shot takes effort, as does marking ranged quarries, but the ranged combatant can choose his foes more easily, etc etc), but the overall damage output is very, very similar, certainly enough so to justify about equal ratings.

 

[keterys]

your total damage is 2[W]+Dex per target, for a total of 4[W]+2[Dex]

Damage to multiple targets is not equivalent to damage to a single target. That was the point I was trying to make.

Hence.
Equivalent Damage _but_ must apply to two targets (minor penalty) and requires proper target selection (minor penalty)

Either the ranger using Jaws of the Wolf needs to have a higher hit bonus (proficiency) or do d10s... and I still find it interesting that you assume rangers won't take either bastard swords or TWF feats to improve their damage, since that's one of their strengths (other classes can't boost their damage as much in that way).

Prime Shot is no easier to acquire than flank and CA provides a larger bonus.

 

[keterys]

Your scale must be lower than mine too, when it comes to Warlock powers, except for Armor of Agathys, in which case your scale seems to be higher than mine.

That one's easy -
1) The amount of temp hp at level 1 is enormous
2) the armor is extremely powerful if used in an atypical fashion

It doesn't change the fact that even if you use it for _1 round_ of attacks on adjacent enemies it can output more guaranteed damage than any of the other warlock daily 1s. Even just 1d6+Con+(Enh/Feat/etc) to 2 opponents compares favorably to the 3d10+5ongoing and a 40% miss chance from Phlegethos, and I rather assume that optimal use for it involves using it on more than 2 opponents or getting _at least some_ benefit from the temp hp, even if not the 2 surges worth that it gives you at level 1

Curse of the Dark dream is no worse than Pin the Foe, and you have that one at a B. And I'm still not impressed with Armor of Agathys, based on the primary role of a Warlock. As a Fighter power, it would be pretty incredible, as a Warlock power it's a bit counter-intuitive.

Curse of the Dark Dream doesn't last for a whole encounter. Pin the Foe is increased under the assumption that it gives you a notable tactical advantage.

Like so:

Fighter is flanking a red dragon with a Rogue+Warlord with a Guardian of Faith also beating on it.

If the Red Dragon does not move at least a square each round, it loses use of its tail slap ability, it gets attacked by the Guardian, and it can't line up breath weapons as effectively.

If it tries to move, the fighter gets an OA to prevent the movement entirely (plus the rogue + warlord get to do some damage).

That's Pin the Foe really screwing someone up... screwed enough that I assumed an enemy would take at least OA hit or provide a lot more flank during the course of the battle, which made it worth more damage = a higher grade.

Disclaimer: I only assumed the one OA / extra flanks, though, not the extreme case I outlined.

 

[Cadfan]

Damage to multiple targets is not equivalent to damage to a single target. That was the point I was trying to make.

Its not identical, no. Sometimes its worse, because you fail to drop your target. Sometimes its better, because you drop two targets. Sometimes its better because there's less "leftover" damage above and beyond what you needed to drop the target.

Either the ranger using Jaws of the Wolf needs to have a higher hit bonus (proficiency) or do d10s... and I still find it interesting that you assume rangers won't take either bastard swords or TWF feats to improve their damage, since that's one of their strengths (other classes can't boost their damage as much in that way).

I left feats out because they multiply complexity. Yes, a melee Ranger can take Proficiency: Bastard Swords, Two Weapon Fighting, and then Weapon Focus: Bastard Swords. The archery Ranger can take feats as well. Yes, there are more damage options for melee Ranger feats, but at this level of complexity, we're dealing with too much data, I think. How are we to compare the archery Ranger's lackluster feat choices against the melee Ranger's poor stat distribution? I've got no idea. So I figure we just hold those things constant.

Prime Shot is no easier to acquire than flank and CA provides a larger bonus.

Archery Rangers can snipe.

Also, I note that you consider target selection a negative. Its not, its a positive.

 

[Mengu]

It doesn't change the fact that even if you use it for _1 round_ of attacks on adjacent enemies it can output more guaranteed damage than any of the other warlock daily 1s.

I'm not denying the potential damage over the course of several rounds, or the nice temp HP's. I'm just saying, that's not exactly what's expected of the Warlock. I expect him to do concentrated damage, per his role. And all other powers are more in line with this role. If I'm the Cleric giving him the Lance of Faith bonus, I expect him to put that to good use with a big attack, not some wussy minion killer that the Wizard already has covered in spades. I also don't want the Warlock to be running into the middle of three brutes (or skirmishers) just to do a bit of controller-like damage to all of them, only to get mauled. I have more important people to heal like the Defenders.

Curse of the Dark Dream doesn't last for a whole encounter.

Sustain Minor, means it will typically last until the target you're focusing on is dead, which souldn't be long once you have them cornered like this. You don't have anything better to do with minor actions until you kill him anyway since you should have cursed him already.

 

[FadedC]

Doesn't Guardian of the Faith still occupy a square, and thus somebody else can't share it's space? I know people can move through it now, but I didn't think people could stop in it's square.

Lead the attack may or may not be as good as advertised, depending on how often your DM uses solo monsters. I would expect many adventures not to contain a single solo and this power really is kind of lackluster if used on an equal sized group. Still potentially an amazing power, but not quite in the "anyone who doesn't take this is a fool" category some are claiming.

Edit: Curse of the dark dreams is sort of oddly worded. You definitely can't sustain it any more once your target makes his save. The question is when does your enemy get to make a save? After the first attack or after it's first sustained?